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Thread: +10 Shield

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    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default +10 Shield

    So, I was thinking about it, and I can make a +10 shield. The cost? 97,000 gold.

    How? +5 shield with +5 defending shield spikes.
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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2009-09-02 at 05:49 PM.

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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    Of course, by RAW, only swords can have Defending.

    Also, you have to actually attack with the spikes to make use of the Defending property.
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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by The Rose Dragon View Post
    Of course, by RAW, only swords can have Defending.

    Also, you have to actually attack with the spikes to make use of the Defending property.
    Ok, in that other thread about Defending, I said it'd be a flamefest or die right away? I apply that here as well.

    Also, The Rose Dragon has successfully brought up the two biggest points of contention...

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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by The Rose Dragon View Post
    Of course, by RAW, only swords can have Defending.

    Also, you have to actually attack with the spikes to make use of the Defending property.
    I'm just going to say that for the first part, that level of RAW is the kind that says Sorcerers have to be female because it has them listed as "she" when mentioning the class features.

    But yeah, it's going to be a flamefest.

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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by srd
    A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.

    Moderate abjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield or shield of faith; Price +1 bonus.
    What's this about swords only?

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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Andras View Post
    What's this about swords only?
    Reread your quotage.
    Last edited by Signmaker; 2009-09-02 at 06:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andras View Post
    What's this about swords only?
    I don't see the spikes thing as any different from a defending weapon in the left hand. Is "defending" a deflection bonus in 3.5? Deflection bonuses don't stack, right, and you'd likely already have a bonus from other gear?

    This actually seems quite reasonable to me.

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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Andras View Post
    What's this about swords only?
    Here:
    Quote Originally Posted by srd
    Originally Posted by srd
    A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.

    Moderate abjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield or shield of faith; Price +1 bonus.
    Considering (a) the emphasis on "weapon," which you already bolded, and (b) the fact that many, if not all, non-sword weapons can be used defensively IRL (dagger/main gauche, quarterstaff, etc.), this claim of "RAW" really looks like just bad editing.

    Looking at the description, I do not even see a requirement that the defending bonus is only available on an attack action. Compare the above with the description for Combat Reflexes:
    Quote Originally Posted by srd
    When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, . . .
    But somehow I suspect that these arguments have already been hashed repeatedly.

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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    Defending is a dodge bonus that stacks with all other sources. The shield/armour spikes trick works, as far as I know.

    If you're a cleric, you just cast greater magic weapon rather than enchant them up to maximum.
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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Skorj View Post
    I don't see the spikes thing as any different from a defending weapon in the left hand. Is "defending" a deflection bonus in 3.5? Deflection bonuses don't stack, right, and you'd likely already have a bonus from other gear?

    This actually seems quite reasonable to me.
    But if you're getting +5 deflection from your shield, in addition to +5 shield enhancement (and presumable an addition +2 from it being a heavy shield), you would presumable ditch the ring of protection +2 and use the item slot for something more useful.
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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    Technically, you don't actually need spikes on a shield to enchant as a weapon. You can just enchant your shield also as a weapon.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ponce_LeRue View Post
    Defending is a dodge bonus that stacks with all other sources. The shield/armour spikes trick works, as far as I know.

    If you're a cleric, you just cast greater magic weapon rather than enchant them up to maximum.
    Defending provides an unnamed bonus, unless there was some errata somewhere along the line that changed that that I completely missed. Also, wizards and sorcerers get GMW a level earlier, so it's a bit more economical to have them on enchant duty and let the healbot use his 4th level spell for some Divine Power or Freedom of Movement.
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2009-09-02 at 07:06 PM.
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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Ponce_LeRue View Post
    Defending is a dodge bonus that stacks with all other sources. The shield/armour spikes trick works, as far as I know.
    No, by RAW, defending is a bonus that stacks with all others when it's on swords. Defending on anything else doesn't stack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    No, by RAW, defending is a bonus that stacks with all others when it's on swords. Defending on anything else doesn't stack.
    Fine then. Make one of the shield spikes a small, or even tiny sized short sword enchanted with defending.
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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by SoD View Post
    But if you're getting +5 deflection from your shield, in addition to +5 shield enhancement (and presumable an addition +2 from it being a heavy shield), you would presumable ditch the ring of protection +2 and use the item slot for something more useful.
    Ahh, I see defending weapons are untyped bonus, which has always been a bit of a hole. Nevertheless, this only increases AC, right? I still don't see a problem - fighters (by the time they have 100K to blow on a shield) die when they fail a Will save, for the most part. An extra +5 AC just doesn't seem that useful, even if it's a bit cheesy.

    Actually, I like this quite a bit: it's a bit of a dodgy rules reading, but clearly it wouldn't work for an animated shield. Anything that encourages the occasionaly sword-and-board fighter would be a relief.

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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    No, by RAW, defending is a bonus that stacks with all others when it's on swords. Defending on anything else doesn't stack.
    If you want to be that hard ass about it, by RAW Defending can't be put on anything, as there's no such weapon as a sword. There are greatswords, longswords, short swords and bastard swords but no swords. Heck, by that logic, you couldn't put it on a rapier, either, since it's not a sword.
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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    And most classes have to be hermaphrodites because it refers to their features with he or she.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    And most classes have to be hermaphrodites because it refers to their features with he or she.
    I know all of my characters are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    And most classes have to be hermaphrodites because it refers to their features with he or she.
    It always refers to them with one specific sex throughout the entire description, actually.

    Which is annoying, since the proper use when you don't want to assume a sex is using "he".

    But I digress. The sword part was mostly a joke about this frequently brought up example of WotC editing (read: no editing). The important part is that you have to use your weapon to gain the defending bonus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Rose Dragon View Post
    It always refers to them with one specific sex throughout the entire description, actually.

    Which is annoying, since the proper use when you don't want to assume a sex is using "he".

    But I digress. The sword part was mostly a joke about this frequently brought up example of WotC editing (read: no editing). The important part is that you have to use your weapon to gain the defending bonus.
    Does it specify you need to use your weapon as a weapon? Otherwise you could say that your enchanted shield is being used, albeit as a shield. Heck, you could say that you're using it for anything.

    *barbarian charges wizard, who is writing on a scroll, and swings his greataxe wildly. It misses*
    Barbarian; "Huh? How did I miss?"
    Wizard; "Oh, this is a pencil of defending +5. I'm using it to write."
    Barbarian; "Oh. That doesn't really make sense..."
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Rose Dragon View Post
    The important part is that you have to use your weapon to gain the defending bonus.
    That does seem to be the important part. Shield spikes? Sure, it's a weapon you use, seems reasonable. Armor spikes? Maybe not. Animated shield? Definitely not.

    Really, +5 defendng shield spikes as the only defending weapon being used by the character seems totally legit. Stacking multiple defending bonuses is a problem orthagonal to shield spikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    No, by RAW, defending is a bonus that stacks with all others when it's on swords. Defending on anything else doesn't stack.
    By RAW, Defending doesn't function without DM ruling, because it doesn't specify which sword it draws enhancement bonus from.

    It is never demonstrated that 'the sword' is the enchanted weapon, and no other alternative is specified.

    In fact, it's a null pointer and likely crashes the D&D game when you try to use that feature.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoD View Post
    Barbarian; "Oh. That doesn't really make sense..."
    Of course it does. It means the pencil is so powerful that if the Wizard hit with it, it'd get +5 to hit and damage - in fact making it the most potent pencil ever wielded.
    Last edited by Indon; 2009-09-02 at 07:30 PM.

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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    I've always liked my +5 Bashing, +5 Defending large shields (+ spikes). 2d6 base damage, improvable by size increases, and able to be wielding two-handed for 1.5x Strength bonus. Who needs swords!

    But yeah, I generally rule you need to attack with the weapon to get the Defending bonus. Otherwise, you could get another +5 AC from Defending armor spikes, and another from a Defending Helmet of Headbashing, and another from the Codpiece of Defending....

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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Indon View Post
    Of course it does. It means the pencil is so powerful that if the Wizard hit with it, it'd get +5 to hit and damage - in fact making it the most potent pencil ever wielded.
    THAT pen is mightier than the sword.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by erikun View Post
    ... another from the Codpiece of Defending....
    But I need that Codpiece of Defending for defending my more sensitive parts.
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2009-09-02 at 07:39 PM.
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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    Can we consider each spike on the shield to be a separate Fine or Diminutive-sized sword?

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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Indon View Post
    Of course it does. It means the pencil is so powerful that if the Wizard hit with it, it'd get +5 to hit and damage - in fact making it the most potent pencil ever wielded.
    And mighter, indeed, than a number of swords.
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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    THAT pen is mightier than the sword.

    EDIT:

    But I need that Codpiece of Defending for defending my more sensitive parts.
    What about a pen that is also a sword: does that weaken or strengthen it to be both?

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    Default Re: +10 Shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    What about a pen that is also a sword: does that weaken or strengthen it to be both?
    Neither; it just boosts the price for a double weapon.

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