Results 1 to 30 of 32
-
2009-09-03, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
This has always struck me as odd. If I recall correctly, 1st edition D&D used "Hobbit", "Ent" and "Balrog" (relying on stuff I've read, being far too young for 1E, so please correct me if I'm wrong), but the names were changed to "Halfling", "Treant" and "Balor" because of legal reasons.
So... why is "Orc" okay? The word was invented by Tolkien, just like the others, but nobody has threatened to sue over its use. Why?
-
2009-09-03, 06:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
- Location
- Switzerland
- Gender
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
Try this!
Orc is derived from old english in which orc meant some sort of demon.
So he didn't invent the word.
Cheers,
FarlionLast edited by Farlion; 2009-09-03 at 06:39 AM.
-
2009-09-03, 06:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
- Location
- England
- Gender
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
Well....
Originally Posted by Tolkein
-
2009-09-03, 06:54 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
-
2009-09-03, 06:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
Intellectual property is a load of crap. The rules are entirely subjective.
-
2009-09-03, 07:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Location
- raiding wales!
- Gender
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
Need a setting for your game? a character concept? any gaming related ideas? I make far to many to eat up myself, and therefor I am willing to share them. Free ideas! Get yer fluff here! PM me.
The friendly neighborhood gentleman perv is always ready to help!
on M&B:
Originally Posted by Celesyne
-
2009-09-03, 07:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
- Location
- Fl
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
Same reason Elf is, Tolkien ripped it from mythology.
You still know who you are taking it from though, so use some original races.Last edited by deuxhero; 2009-09-03 at 07:24 AM.
-
2009-09-03, 07:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2009
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
I was told, from reputable sources but feel free to refute, that while grading papers Tolkein wrote on one, "And in a hole dwelt a hobbit," (or whatever the opening line to The Hobbit is). His next thought was, "Well, I better find out what a hobbit is."
Perhaps the word came subconsciously or some such from his knowledge of Old English, but to his understanding (if the story is true) it was an original creation not a conscious augmentation of a word already known.
I recall he stated at least one something like that he felt like he was telling a story already existant, not creating a story. Like, tapping into a Platonic idea. (Platonic philosophy is a type I studied little, but I realize this analogy is flawed.)
-
2009-09-03, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
- Location
- United Kingdom
- Gender
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
Last edited by Unwitting Pawn; 2009-09-04 at 05:57 PM.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GURPS 4e Banestorm fantasy game: recruitment thread | OOC thread | IC thread | mock combat threads I & II
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
2009-09-03, 07:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- the abyss (aka NJ)
- Gender
-
2009-09-03, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2009
- Location
- Germany
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
No, but they have the same origin.
We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
-
2009-09-03, 08:03 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- England
- Gender
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
Mannerism RPG An RPG in which your descriptions resolve your actions and sculpts your growth.
-
2009-09-03, 08:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Gender
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
IIRC Tolkein used the word "halfling" to refer to hobbits at least once (it was certainly used that way in the movies, it's been a while since I read the books).
-
2009-09-03, 08:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Location
- The One in the Middle
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
Originally, an orc is a kind of sea monster. Thus Orca for killer whale. I can only guess that Tolkein saw the word, liked the sound or feel of it, and slapped it onto his goblinoid.
I drive a quantum car- every time I look down at the speedometer, I get lost.
_____________
As a juggler, I may not always be smarter than a banana. However, bananas aren't often surrounded by children asking for hugs and autographs.
-
2009-09-03, 09:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
- Location
- Fl
-
2009-09-03, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
- Location
- United Kingdom
- Gender
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
Last edited by Unwitting Pawn; 2009-09-04 at 05:57 PM.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GURPS 4e Banestorm fantasy game: recruitment thread | OOC thread | IC thread | mock combat threads I & II
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
2009-09-03, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
- Location
- San Antonio, Texas
- Gender
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
Of course, "ent" is also a word for "giant", but because of Tolkien's specific use of it, the D&D version had to vary, a bit.
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
-
2009-09-03, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Gender
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
Nah, I have the Basic set of D&D and Halflings are still Halflings then. The Demons were all numbered and I don't recall what Treants were called. The Tolkien lawyers sued TSR over infringement earlier on than AD&D 1st. You have to look at the original White Box for ents and hobbits and even then the first editions before they were forced to change them.
-
2009-09-03, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Gender
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
Last edited by Elfin; 2009-09-03 at 12:15 PM.
Masters of the Sword: A Warblade's Handbook
Walking the Way: A Swordsage's Handbook
Avatar by Miss Nobody. Doll by Recaiden.
-
2009-09-03, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Gender
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
I've heard the Tolkien Estate has made some sort of formal agreement that they won't sue anyone over "halfling", but hands off "hobbit". That strikes me as more real than any sort of linguistic argument.
Edit: The Hobbit is of course a book title, so the Tolkien Estate would naturally take steps to protect "hobbit" that it wouldn't need to for "orc", or even "uruk hai".
I think "treant" came from a phase when D&D was actively trying to be seen as not a Tolkien ripoff, even though the word is clearly "ent" with the serial number filed off. "Krellans" anyone?Last edited by Skorj; 2009-09-03 at 03:56 PM.
-
2009-09-03, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
- Location
- Heilbronn area, Germany
- Gender
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
In the early days of The Hobbit's popularity, a German publisher walked away when they found out that Tolkien had made up the hobbits. They were angry that the hobbits were not authentic mythology.
-
2009-09-03, 09:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
tinwatchman initiative tracker - free initiative tracker for the iPod and iPod Touch!
tinwatchman D&D 4e starting character generator - free first-level character generator for D&D 4th edition.
Writer of "A Final Fantasy."
Cthulhu Hardboiled Part I: The Waters Over Heaven.
-
2009-09-03, 10:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Gender
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
-
2009-09-03, 11:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Broken Damaged Worthless
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
The shift occurred in the 5th or 6th printing of the original rule set. I'd know, I have the "before" and "after" books themselves to prove it.
You know, in case anyone actually cared to know that.
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
-
2009-09-04, 08:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- Hastings, MN
- Gender
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
Actually, the word Tolkien used was orcneas. Same definition but slightly different word. Thank you, Tolkien class! You know what my professor told me? In a back room somewhere they found a manuscript for Tolkien's translation of freakin' BEOWULF! The Tolkien Estate is keeping it locked up until they can find someone they like to translate, transcribe and publish it. Can you imagine what it'd be like if that got published?! There'd be no other accepted version! I mean, one of the reasons my Survey of Brit Lit I class picked our particular textbook set was because they use Tolkien's translation of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight! That's awesome!!!
"Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."
-
2009-09-04, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Gender
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
-
2009-09-04, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
- Location
- San Antonio, Texas
- Gender
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
While I love the Heaney version for it's readability (it's one of the few that I think most people will be able to sit and read like a novel), I have a particular fondness for the language of Rebsamen's translation. Good meter and rhythm, while fairly accessible. It stays fairly close to the Anglo-Saxon in that respect.
Burton Raffel should die in a fire. He has the poetic soul of a drunken marmoset.The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
-
2009-09-04, 12:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
- Gender
-
2009-09-04, 12:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Gender
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-09-04 at 12:22 PM.
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)
-
2009-09-04, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
- Location
- Mandelbrot set
Re: Hobbits are Halflings, Ents are Treants... why is "Orc" okay?
Tolkien is given credit for coining the term hobbit, but didn't as it appeared in papers dating to 1859.
It is all about copyright and IP and such that should have been dealt with long ago. Like a patent, these things should have been checked to make sure the author did create the word prior to giving them total control over it, such WotC tries to claim total control over when someone uses their GSL in regards to public domain terms.
Hobbit I can choke back a bit because it is a book name, but the rest not so much since Tolkien stole it all from the Wagner opera Der Ring des Nibelungen.