Help with a warblade build [3.5]

[Coplantor]

Well, I'm the DM actually, a friend of mine needs help. She likes meleers so she decided to try out the warblade. She will play a githyanki warblade, her style of playing is very agressive and straight forward, big swords, flashy moves and she rolled some crazy stats, her modified stats are as follows:

Str:17
Dex:18
Con:18
Int:16
Wis:3
Cha:14

Due to some variant rules and homebrews, our characters start with three feats at level one and one feat at every odd numbered level.

Please link to any intresting build or give me some advice regarding feats and maneuvers, she would probably go for warblade 20, but any PrC with awesome fluff and crunch that makes combat funnier and/or more intresting is OK.

[Myrmex]

What level are you starting? That Diamond Mind move that lets you make a concentration check in place of a will save is a must have. 3 wisdom is almost unplayable. Maybe move it to charisma?

Iron Heart Surge- work out what it does, and make sure she picks it up.

[Eldariel]

How would she like to fight? That is, which weapons setup does she plan on: Two-Handing, Two-Weapon Fighting, Sword&Board, One-Handing, Unarmed? That's really the big defining question in building a martial adept.

[Coplantor]

I think she would probably go for the Great Sword, and yeah, Im familiar with the diamond mind maneuver. The campaign starts at level 1. I considered the force of personality feat to use cha instead of wis for will saves.

[Douglas]

I considered the force of personality feat to use cha instead of wis for will saves.

It costs an extra feat for a prerequisite, but Steadfast Determination would be better if you want to go that route.

[Coplantor]

It costs an extra feat for a prerequisite, but Steadfast Determination would be better if you want to go that route.

OK; gotta ask, what is Steadfast Determination?

[Myshlaevsky]

OK; gotta ask, what is Steadfast Determination?

Con for Will, I do believe.

[Eldariel]

OK; gotta ask, what is Steadfast Determination?

Con to Will-saves (instead of Wis), and don't fail Fort-saves on 1. From PHBII. Requires Endurance. You could also give him Keen Intellect [OA] which gives Int to Will-saves and some Wis-based skills. Level 1 only feat from a sorta settings of its own though, but not something I wouldn't allow outside the settings since it's so overall handy.

Also, see this for additional save replacement effects.

[Coplantor]

...Also, see this for additional save replacement effects.

I'm familiar with that thread, but somehow, I always forget about it's existance. Silly me. The con to will seems intresting, considering that she will have a larger con than cha, and saving those fort saves even on a 1 takes out the embarrasment of failing a massive damage save with a 1 (happened to me once, I had a freaking +16 to fort, and the DC is 15!)

[Douglas]

don't fail Fort-saves on 1.

You still have to beat the DC, of course, but a 1 is no longer automatically a failure no matter what. The main effect for most builds is constitution instead of wisdom to will saves.

[Coplantor]

Oh, yeah, I understood that one.
Anyway, should she go for warblade 20? Two stances at the same time looks kinda nice, what does iron heart surge does? And is there any other maneuver she should have?

[Myshlaevsky]

Oh, yeah, I understood that one.
Anyway, should she go for warblade 20? Two stances at the same time looks kinda nice, what does iron heart surge does? And is there any other maneuver she should have?

This was asked not long ago - I think the eventual build suggested was Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 1 or Wolf Totem Barbarian 1/Warblade 18.

It doesn't get the double stance thing but it does get pounce and I don't think the initiator level suffers. That was a TWF'ing Tiger Claw dude though, IIRC.

Iron Heart Surge ends an effect, spell or condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. It's quite vaguely worded which leads to people using light sensitive Warblades to turn off the sun. You should make sure you know what its cabapilities are going to be in your campaign.

[Eldariel]

Oh, yeah, I understood that one.
Anyway, should she go for warblade 20? Two stances at the same time looks kinda nice, what does iron heart surge does? And is there any other maneuver she should have?

The Blade-maneuvers from Diamond Mind are incredible for two-handers. She may want to consider a Barbarian-dip for Pounce [Spirit Lion Totem ACF] & Rage to combine it with the White Raven & Diamond Mind charges to great effect, and maybe the second Barbarian-level for Improved Trip (or other bonus feat from some of the Unearthed Arcana Totems). That said, Warblade 20 is good too. It's all about trade-offs, as multiclassing should be.

Iron Heart Surge basically removes conditions affecting you. You're Slowed? IRON HEART SURRRRGE! You're Dazzled? IRON HEART SURRRRGE! You're dead? IRON HEART SURRRGE!...or not. It's ill-defined, but yeah, you get to remove basically any condition on you with the maneuver. Notably, you can end some spells affecting you like e.g. Anti-Magic Field (which is really scary for melee-types). It's handy. It basically represents the movie moment where the hero overcomes the evil mastermind's enchantment/whatever with sheer force of will. Should always be accompanied by a Roar of Effort.


But yeah, maneuvers...up to her. Diamond Mind probably best enhances her damage dealing capability and defensively she'll want Iron Heart. White Raven is nice if she wants some leadership capabilities (and the Charges, Leading the Charge [incredible once you pick up Shock Trooper to go with your Two-Handing!] and White Raven Hammer are nice anyways; oh, and White Raven Tactics kicks ass), Tiger Claw has some brutal Jump-maneuvers in addition to few boosts giving extra attacks, and Stone Dragon has some basic "Big Damage"-hits and more notably, maneuvers that ignore hardness (you should pick up Mountain Hammer - it's basically a dungeon opener in addition to having some other uses) and Roots of the Mountain (I'd never build an adept without this; one of the very few ways to stop those insanely big Trip/Grapple/Bull Rush/Whatever monsters from walking all over you).

Stone Dragon has the annoying limitation of not working while flying though, so Stone Dragon focus may be ill-adviced unless you're primarily in dungeons and on the ground. Taking it as a "secondary" school doesn't hurt tho.

[elliott20]

why did she decide to sit on a 3 wis? I mean, there are "dump stats", and then there's "nuke to oblivion".

[Coplantor]

Roleplaying reasons, the way she plays her characters, they are ussually temperamental, impulsive, little to non analitical, and she got a 5 (-2 racial modifier). Yet she still wanted to be good at social situations, like, using the diplomacy skill properly and such.

[Elfin]

Here's a pretty functional level 1-20 maneuver/stance progression, focused on Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, and Tiger Claw:

Spoiler

Show

Level 1- Steel Wind, Steely Strike, Moment of Perfect Mind
Stance-Blood in the Water

Level 2- Leading the Attack

Level 3- Emerald Razor

Level 4- Steely Strike Wall of Blades
Stance- Leading the Attack

Level 5- White Raven Tactics

Level 6- Leading the Attack Iron Heart Surge

Level 7- Death from Above

Level 8- Emerald Razor Ruby Nightmare Blade

Level 9- Dancing Mongoose

Level 10- Death from Above Pouncing Charge
Stance: Absolute Steel

Level 11- Greater Insightful Strike

Level 12- Steel Wind Iron Heart Endurance

Level 13- Swooping Dragon Strike

Level 14- Greater Insightful Strike Avalanche of Blades

Level 15- Diamond Nightmare Blade

Level 16- Ruby Nightmare Blade Raging Mongoose
Stance: Stance of Alacrity

Level 17- Time Stands Still

Level 18- Dancing Mongoose Feral Death Blow

Level 19- Mountain Tombstone Strike

Level 20- Swooping Dragon Strike Adamantine Hurricane

For flavor reasons, consider getting Martial Study (Strike of Perfect Clarity).

Not the best, but functional.

[Coplantor]

"Martial Study (Strike of Perfect Clarity)."

Feat? Is that the one that grants a bonus maneuver or something?

[sofawall]

Yes, that is correct.

[AslanCross]

Roleplaying reasons, the way she plays her characters, they are ussually temperamental, impulsive, little to non analitical, and she got a 5 (-2 racial modifier). Yet she still wanted to be good at social situations, like, using the diplomacy skill properly and such.

I'd think the 3 wis means "has a 0.5 attention span and little to no perception of her environment." On the average Wisdom scores chart in the PHB, that's only 1 point more Wis than a shrieker fungus. I'd think such a person would probably be a savant.

Won't the DM let her reroll?

[Haven]

I'd think the 3 wis means "has a 0.5 attention span and little to no perception of her environment." On the average Wisdom scores chart in the PHB, that's only 1 point more Wis than a shrieker fungus. I'd think such a person would probably be a savant.

Won't the DM let her reroll?

Hee. She's almost totally oblivious to her environment and has the common sense of a fruit fly, yet she's a genius and everyone loves her anyway. Possibly because she can kill them with her little toe.

Sounds like it'd be a fun character to play.

[AslanCross]

With the obvious problem of having to burn a feat on Steadfast Determination to avoid getting Charmed in every other encounter.

Anyway, Moment of Perfect Mind and Iron Heart Surge (once you figure out what it does) would be really useful for this character.

[Asheram]

Deleted. Nvm.

[Fixer]

If she's really worried about being charmed at 1st level, let her take the following feat from Magic of Incarnum:

Shape Soulmeld (Planar Ward): Immune to Mind Control, Possession, etc. as if protected by a Protection from Evil spell.

Won't protect her from being charmed, but the caster (or critter) in question cannot use that charm to control her. Best thing is, it lasts as long as it is not dispelled, and can be regenerated next time she rests.

---------------------------

I can see her being role-played now:

Player 1: Hey, Githy, see that knob over there?
Githy: (Fails Spot roll) Nope.
Player 2: *grabs Githy's hand and carries her over to the knob* Search around here for it.
GithY: (Successful Search roll) Oh, there it is...

[Draz74]

On the subject of Steadfast Determination, note that the annoying prerequisite feat is less troublesome for a Warblade than for anyone else (except a Ranger), because it can be selected as a bonus feat at Level 5.

Moment of Perfect Mind still wouldn't be a bad idea, though, at early levels. Especially if the character is maxing out her Concentration ranks anyway for the sake of the Nightmare Blade strikes.

Personally I'm not a fan of the one-level Barbarian dip for Pounce; it's cheesy, and Warblades can get the pouncing action they need other ways (e.g. Pouncing Charge). And if the campaign actually gets to Level 20, Stance Mastery is awesome.

So yeah, personally I'd say either Warblade 20, or some within-ToB-multiclassing, like Warblade 13/Swordsage 1/Crusader 1/Master of Nine 5.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I see this character being played very similar to Belkar. Some base cunning, decent vocabulary etc., charming in their own way, yet stubborn, oblivious, and pretty self-centered.

[Draz74]

I see this character being played very similar to Belkar. Some base cunning, decent vocabulary etc., charming in their own way, yet stubborn, oblivious, and pretty self-centered.

Well, Belkar's CHA is a lot lower than 14. But some of what you say is pretty valid still.

[Keshay]

A Wisdom 3 character is realistically unplayable. The character would be entirely unable to hold any sort of meaningful conversation, correctly interpret any external information, and would likely forget to breathe.

This character would be incapable of understanding any sort of reletionship other than "not me". And I don't mean in relation with other people, I mean with objects. She would not be able to tell the difference between her sword and her toothbrush.

Letting a player play the character they want to is nice and all, but you need to give the character at least a 5 if they want to be able to function in anything resembling the manner of a civilized person. The social situations would still be difficult because she would not be able to understand when someone was talking to her instead of the person beside her. She'd be unable to understand pronouns because she would not have the mental faculties to overcome event the slightest ambiguity in terms.

Bring that Wisdom up a bit and drop some the other stats down. Seriously, if You're already using a 58 point buy, there's no reason to try and munchkin this much by giving youself a 5 in your worst stat.
How about this:
Str: 16
Dex: 18
Con: 18
Int: 16
Wis: 8 (with the -2 you end up with a 6)
Cha: 14

For one point of Str (or Dex or Con) you can get a Wisdom that a person could conceivebly survive infancy with. Of course, in any game I mastered they would still be taking thier Wis modifier on any social interactions, but that's just me. If you can not interpret your environment, you're going to make errors in personal interaction.

[Myrmex]

Roleplaying reasons, the way she plays her characters, they are ussually temperamental, impulsive, little to non analitical, and she got a 5 (-2 racial modifier). Yet she still wanted to be good at social situations, like, using the diplomacy skill properly and such.

Yeah, but you can put ranks in diplomacy which will balance out a poor charisma score. You can't do the same thing with your will save.

A Wisdom 3 character is realistically unplayable. The character would be entirely unable to hold any sort of meaningful conversation, correctly interpret any external information, and would likely forget to breathe.

This character would be incapable of understanding any sort of reletionship other than "not me". And I don't mean in relation with other people, I mean with objects. She would not be able to tell the difference between her sword and her toothbrush.

With an 18 intelligence, you're looking at some sort of savant. What she does, she does extremely well. I'm imagining a severely autistic person who happens to also be charming.

Letting a player play the character they want to is nice and all, but you need to give the character at least a 5 if they want to be able to function in anything resembling the manner of a civilized person. The social situations would still be difficult because she would not be able to understand when someone was talking to her instead of the person beside her. She'd be unable to understand pronouns because she would not have the mental faculties to overcome event the slightest ambiguity in terms.

1. She's an adventurer. Breaking into creatures' homes, killing the occupants and taking their stuff so you can break into better guarded homes isn't civilized behavior.

2. I'm not sure who made you arbitrator of ability scores and their meaning. I mean, all these conclusions certainly aren't in any book, so it's not RAW. I guess if this character wouldn't be playable according to your houserules, you should say that, because your presumed authority is a little grating.

Bring that Wisdom up a bit and drop some the other stats down. Seriously, if You're already using a 58 point buy, there's no reason to try and munchkin this much by giving youself a 5 in your worst stat.
How about this:
Str: 16
Dex: 18
Con: 18
Int: 16
Wis: 8 (with the -2 you end up with a 6)
Cha: 14

For one point of Str (or Dex or Con) you can get a Wisdom that a person could conceivebly survive infancy with. Of course, in any game I mastered they would still be taking thier Wis modifier on any social interactions, but that's just me. If you can not interpret your environment, you're going to make errors in personal interaction.

She rolled the scores, wasn't point buy.

[Coplantor]

If she's really worried about being charmed at 1st level, let her take the following feat from Magic of Incarnum:

Shape Soulmeld (Planar Ward): Immune to Mind Control, Possession, etc. as if protected by a Protection from Evil spell.

Won't protect her from being charmed, but the caster (or critter) in question cannot use that charm to control her. Best thing is, it lasts as long as it is not dispelled, and can be regenerated next time she rests...

well, technically, she is an ousider and charm person wont work on her, besides, githyanki get SR 5 + class levels, during encounters with an "apropiate" CR for the party level she will be afected only by 3 out of 4 spells targetedat her, yeah, it isn't that great but it's pretty nice, unless she plays the EPH githyanki that has PR instead of SR but she also gets a power point reserve wich would allow her to get psionically focused, taking 15 on a diamond mind maneuver seems pretty nice to me.

About having to spend a preq. feat to get Steadfast Determination, remember that I said that they start with three feats and they get a new every odd numbered levle, so regular character will have 12 feats instead of the ussual 7.

[Sophismata]

I'd go for the Master of Nine if you have that many feats to blow. With high Dex and High strength, you can really get a lot out of both Tiger Claw and Devoted Spirit. Master of Nine also gets dual stance, and if you take Shadow Blade, you're adding both Str AND Dex to every attack, as long as you have a Shadow Hand stance. Air Walk is a convenient one, but there are others.

Don't go down the Lion Totem Charge route, it's kinda lame. The Martial Adept stuff is way cooler. Yeah, you can do both, but there's no need.

If you use the EPH Gith, Psionic Focus works really well with Diamond Mind techniques.