[3.5] Suped up Expert

[rezplz]

So I was toying around with the idea of improving the Expert somehow in order to make it a more playable class in a group of PC classes. Basically upgrading the expert to a PC class, instead of an NPC class. The goal of the improved expert is to be the best damned skill monkey that's out there. However, it wouldn't do much else.

Hit die: d8
BAB: Average (as Cleric/Bard)

Class skills: Choose any 10+INT modifier skills to be considered class skills for this character.
Skill points per level: 10+INT modifier

Class features: Bonus feats at levels 1, 4, 8, 12, 16, 20. These feats must be skill focus, one of the +2/+2 feats (such as stealthy), trapfinding (if search is a class skill), or Skill mastery (as the rogue ability).

Saves: Poor Fortitude, Good Reflex, Poor Will. (Considering making Will good?)

I'm considering giving craft/proffesion as automatic class skills to this version of the expert. After all, I'm pretty sure every class already has those.

[Ashtagon]

It works, but it lacks flavour. I'm left wondering who is this guy, and what trope in fantasy stories does he fill, that can't be done much better by an existing class?

The expert was originally written to stat up village craftsmen, sages, burghers, traders, and the like. It does an okay-ish job of that, although it was written intentionally broad and generic to allow for such a wide range. For a PC class, I'd want something that lets me pinpoint his identity with a bit more precision.

As a design point, more skill points means a character has a broader skill base. It doesn't mean he is better at his skills. In that regard, having tons of skill points per level just makes the class's identity even harder to identify. Skill bonus feats work much better for that, but there's only really a maximum of two that are useful per feat (the +3 one, and the +2/+2 one). Extra skill feats beyond that again just enhance the identity issues the class has.

[Omegonthesane]

They already did an Expert PC class.

What I want to see is Aristocrat buffed into a PC class. Maybe with at-will Ex abilities that work like Charm/Suggestion/Dominate dependent on level, and Leadership as a class feature at level 6 - to represent that the Aristocrat's only big strengths are his charm and his followers. Maybe 6pts/level too, and abilities dependent on him being the only non-Wizard in core with all the Knowledge skills as class skills.

[EdroGrimshell]

I am currently making one as well, i'm giving it a special ability thing that the rogue has.

[keilyn]

my personal favorite is the Master class from the War of the Lance sourcebook - the whole thing is made of awesome, IMHO. Might save you from reinventing the wheel.

[Cieyrin]

They already did an Expert PC class.

What I want to see is Aristocrat buffed into a PC class. Maybe with at-will Ex abilities that work like Charm/Suggestion/Dominate dependent on level, and Leadership as a class feature at level 6 - to represent that the Aristocrat's only big strengths are his charm and his followers. Maybe 6pts/level too, and abilities dependent on him being the only non-Wizard in core with all the Knowledge skills as class skills.

Updated Aristocrats has been done twice that I'm aware of, notably both by Margaret Weis for the Dragonlance Campaign Setting and for the Sovereign Stone game. I think they're both called Nobles, too, though Sovereign Stone is very much 3.0ish.

[Godskook]

It works, but it lacks flavour. I'm left wondering who is this guy, and what trope in fantasy stories does he fill, that can't be done much better by an existing class?

More to the point, @OP, what is it about the factotum/rogue classes that *doesn't* do exactly what you're wanting? I mean, as far as I know, if I wanted to play a jack of all trades skillmonkey, I'd either go rogue or factotum(bard if I wanted a more general jack, rather than just a monkey-jack). If I needed an obscure skill not on either's class list, I'd take Able Learner. Considering that, what can't you do with the current options(or don't do well enough, besides 'have enough skill points'*)?

*Saying 'I need more skill points' is kinda like saying 'I need more HP'. On the one hand, its explicitly true, but on the other, it isn't really saying anything useful. Better to ask why you're running out of skill points(or HP) than to say you need more. For instance, without healing(it happens), a raging barbarian might start whining, saying 'I need more HP', but what he really needs is to either buy some potions or find a cleric.

[rezplz]

Godsook: This "expert" isn't really something that I would play. I'd much quicker go to the rogue or something like that. But my friend wants to play a skill monkey, but doesn't really want to go for the rogue because of its flavor (basically, the sneak attack). Factotum, well, I don't know much at all about that class, but my friend said he also didn't want to do a factotum. Something about inspiration points? I think he said he wanted his ability in whatever skill it was to be constant, rather than having temporary boosts.

Maybe one thing that I could do different is, instead of giving it more skill points, give it the ability to apply the skill focus feat to a single skill more than once? I could see diplomacy getting even more broken though, if the DM uses diplomacy as written in the book... Maybe I'd put some restrictions on which skills it would apply to.

[Ashtagon]

It sounds like the scout (Complete Adventurer) could be what he needs. 8+Int skill points, SA is replaced by skirmish (extra precision damage on a turn in which you move), plus a few other interesting class features. 20 skills are on the class skill list, including 3 different knowledge skills and speak language. They also have trapfinding.

[rezplz]

Okay, so I got my friend to hammer out the basics of what he wants for this skillmonkey.

Chris says:
So tell me then, what "type of character" - as in flavor - are you going for?
Tim says:
a creative thinker really, someone who can come up with a solution to any problem with what he's got in his bags
Chris says:
I don't know much about factotums but it sounds really similar
Tim says:
fluff-wise, almost exact
Tim says:
but I don't want to deal with them
Chris says:
The inspiration points thing?
Tim says:
yeah


He also said he didn't like the flavor of the scout, and that the skirmish ability would go to waste. Yeeeaaah he's being really picky about this which is why I thought it'd be interesting to just improve the Expert since that really seems to be what he's going for.

[Godskook]

If he doesn't like scout, try suggesting ToB(Swordsage in particular). Also, ignore the fluff on any class, from rogue to wizard. Its shouldn't prevent you from playing something that is mechanically exactly what you're looking for(Except for things like Paladin, where the fluff/mechanics are linked).

What is your friend actually wanting to do, fluff-wise?

[Sallera]

a creative thinker really, someone who can come up with a solution to any problem with what he's got in his bags

I don't know whether it will fit, but my favorite solution to this problem is a scroll-lock. If you don't want to use Rogue or Factotum, try one level of Expert to pick up ten skills not on the warlock's class list, grab Able Learner as well, and then take two levels of warlock for deceive item. After that, you can pretty much take whatever you want, as long as it's got a decent number of skillpoints, because your class features stop being particularly important.

Boost UMD every chance you get, and you'll essentially auto-succeed on casting scrolls several levels higher than your level would suggest, and do so from any class's spell list. So you just grab an Infinite Scrollcase and fill it with a bunch of obscure spells that no one in their right mind would ever prepare, but would still be useful in the right situation. And on top of that, you've probably got every skill you'll need. Now, naturally, if your friend doesn't like casters, this might not be much better... but it is a lot of fun. ^^

[Ashtagon]

If the only problem with the rogue class is the sneak attack, there is the Unearthed Arcana (also in SRD) rogue class variant, which drops sneak attack and adds the fighter bonus feat progression.

Considering how lame generally the skill feats are, I'd even let him use those feats for either fighter bonus feats or skill feats. Call it the batman rogue variant

[Godskook]

He also said he didn't like the flavor of the scout, and that the skirmish ability would go to waste. Yeeeaaah he's being really picky about this which is why I thought it'd be interesting to just improve the Expert since that really seems to be what he's going for.

Sounds like he wants to play McGiver, and in which case either (a)D&D is ill-suited to his character, since many of the needed abilities to succeed aren't going to 'fit' with the concept or (b)he's refusing to do what McGiver would do in his situation, which is actually get the best thing he can grab(read: wizard/cleric/...)(Also, how exactly does he expect to be useful in combat if he refuses every combat skill offered him?).