[3.5] The Bonded Summoner?

[Indon]

So I had Miniatures' Handbook open and noticed this class.

Long story short, it's an arcane spellcasting prestige class (enterable at Wiz 3) that replaces your familiar with an elemental.

At level 1 of the class, you have a Medium elemental (4 HD). Every two levels you gain in the class, the size of the elemental increases - to Elder Elemental (24 HD) at level 9.

You can be a level 12 character with a 24 HD elemental as your familiar.

At level 10 of the class (so character level 13), you can polymorph into a 24 HD elemental yourself once a day, for 10 hours a day.

The downside? 5/10 casting progression.

So, two points:
1.WTF? How did a prestige class this powerful get into the book with the Healer and the Marshal?

2.Is having a 24 HD elder elemental and being able to polymorph into one yourself worth losing 5 caster levels? Is this a partial-casting progression prestige class worth taking over a full caster build?

[Yukitsu]

1: They don't playtest very well.

2: No.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

If you don't lose 5 caster levels, you can get Shapechange, which allows you to do all that and more!

[Indon]

2: No.

I guess I should've expected this for insinuating that anything other than Wizard 20 could possibly be potent on this forum.

[Shpadoinkle]

1: They don't playtest very well.

2: No.

Fixed that for you.

Also, /thread.

[Yukitsu]

I guess I should've expected this for insinuating that anything other than Wizard 20 could possibly be potent on this forum.

An elder elemental only has a CR of 11. You can get the cohort variant of the specialized enchanter and get a CR 18 assistant with far more flexibility with no loss of caster levels, though you do have to be a specialist enchanter.

At those later levels, you can shapechange into an elder elemental anyway.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I guess I should've expected this for insinuating that anything other than Wizard 20 could possibly be potent on this forum.

You didn't insinuate anything, you just asked a question if losing 5 caster levels was worth getting the Elemental abilities, and the answer is no. What are you complaining about?

[The Neoclassic]

I guess I should've expected this for insinuating that anything other than Wizard 20 could possibly be potent on this forum.

Heh. Well, if you use shapechange/polymorph/whatever as is in the core books, then they have a point. However, people complain about those spells being nastily overpowered, so if you or your DM plays with those nerfed at all, then this class may indeed be competitive.

[SparkMandriller]

I guess I should've expected this for insinuating that anything other than Wizard 20 could possibly be potent on this forum.

Level 9 spells are pretty cool, I'm sure you'll agree.

[Eldariel]

I guess I should've expected this for insinuating that anything other than Wizard 20 could possibly be potent on this forum.

You asked if it's equally potent, which it isn't. It pidgeonholes you to just few abilities instead of everything spellcasting offers and gives up the most powerful spells entirely. The issue is that Elementals unfortunately advance in power far slower than in HD. An Elder Elemental is CR 11.

Now you've given up your primary class features and have nothing to advance anymore. In return, you'll have a now-very-sufficient Elemental Companion that'll fade into obscurity over the next couple of levels, and a now-very-handy change shape ability that will likewise fade into obscurity in a couple of levels.


You gain:
- Nice companion only 1 CR under your level.
- Ability to turn into one.

You lose:
- Versatility offered by spells.
- Power offered by 3 levels of spells.
- Endurance offered by all the new spells per day.


Now, it could be a decent different kind of "companion class" if you had a progression...but the CR 11 forms are all you'll ever have. Unfortunately, HD doesn't equal power in this case.

[AstralFire]

Heh. Well, if you use shapechange/polymorph/whatever as is in the core books, then they have a point. However, people complain about those spells being nastily overpowered, so if you or your DM plays with those nerfed at all, then this class may indeed be competitive.

You'd have to nerf a lot.

Let me rephrase the question for Indon in a way I think might be more useful - do the people here think that Bonded Summoner ends up as a T3-ish character with little effort?

[Godskook]

I guess I should've expected this for insinuating that anything other than Wizard 20 could possibly be potent on this forum.

A)You didn't insinuate anything of the sort. Its quite a stretch from "is this powerful" to "is this worthwhile compared to the normal options for my base class". Your original post asked the second, and here, you're saying you said the first. They just aren't comparable, and you should expect extremely different answers for one over the other.

B)That sounds like "I should've expected this for insinuating that anything other than holding a bat properly could be potent in the Yankees dugout". If you submit your question to those familiar with optimization, expect optimized answers for goodness sake.

C)I almost never see Wizard 20 as a good Wizard build around here. If nothing else, Archmage, MotAO, or MS.

[Akal Saris]

It requires 8 ranks in skills, so level 6 entry at the minimum. So you get the awesome elemental at level 15, which is pretty late for effectiveness - at that point you can cast Greater Planar Binding as a straight wizard anyhow, and just bind an 18 HD elemental while keeping your spellcasting.

It's not the worst PrC or anything, but it's hardly that impressive. If your DM lets Extra Familiar from Dragon Magazine to qualify as an additional elemental, it could get much better though.

Interestingly enough, a Duskblade could qualify for this easily enough with the Obtain Familiar feat, and the immunities the class grants are pretty nice for a tank too. But the horrible BAB and HPs detract from that idea.

[Fax Celestis]

Interestingly enough, a Duskblade could qualify for this easily enough with the Obtain Familiar feat, and the immunities the class grants are pretty nice for a tank too. But the horrible BAB and HPs detract from that idea.

One look at the incarnate should indicate that you can be a front-line fighter with a small HD and a 1:2 BAB.

[RagnaroksChosen]

There was an awesome right up that some one did on the wizards boards before they where broken.

I'd google bonded summon... I always liked the flavor of this class wish it was a little better though.

[ericgrau]

An elder elemental only has a CR of 11.

This. Once per day you can bump your dynamic duo up to CR 13. For a brief period of time, 1/day, you reach par with a non-caster. Then you hit level 14 and become worse.

Um, mage armor helps I guess. All the other buffs could also be applied to the party fighter/etc.

EDIT: Oh, I know what might break it. The elemental has a better BAB than the party fighter until you hit level 18. Polymorph it into something else entirely.

[Sinfire Titan]

One look at the incarnate should indicate that you can be a front-line fighter with a small HD and a 1:2 BAB.

Or just look at Ploymorph, for those of us who don't understand how versatile Incarnum is. But I agree. Wholeheartedly.

[Thurbane]

I guess I should've expected this for insinuating that anything other than Wizard 20 could possibly be potent on this forum.

I hear your pain.

[Eloel]

(enterable at Wiz 3)

No it isn't. It needs 8 ranks in Knowledge (the planes). Minimum level: 5

[Sinfire Titan]

No it isn't. It needs 8 ranks in Knowledge (the planes). Minimum level: 5

Even more reason why it sucks then. You'd be a 15th level Wizard who is casting as a 10th level Wizard and has a CR 11 pet that you can turn into 1/day.

A straight Wizard 20 with a familiar does this better. Faaaaaaaaaaar better.

[PId6]

A straight Wizard 20 with a familiar does this better. Faaaaaaaaaaar better.

But everybody knows familiars are broken!

[Godskook]

One look at the incarnate should indicate that you can be a front-line fighter with a small HD and a 1:2 BAB.

I've looked at incarnate, more than once, and still it confuses me, but since it is you, Fax, I'll take your word for it.

[Sinfire Titan]

I've looked at incarnate, more than once, and still it confuses me, but since it is you, Fax, I'll take your word for it.

I'll spell it out:

Vitality Belt+8 Essentia+ Meldshaper Level 20=160 extra HP, on top of a d6+really high Con score (Meldshaper, remember?)
Lawful Incarnum Radiance+Incarnate Avatar+Incarnate Weapon=High attack bonus. Really, I've been able to churn out a +70 from a single Incarnate using nothing but Soulmelds, ability scores, feats, and the Incarnum Radiance.
Crystal Helm=Good AC bonus.


It just takes the right combination of Soulmelds and Chakra Binds. The right combination can get massive power bonuses all around. You just need to focus on a single role to do so.

[Leon]

So I had Miniatures' Handbook open and noticed this class.

Long story short, it's an arcane spellcasting prestige class (enterable at Wiz 3) that replaces your familiar with an elemental.

So, two points:
1.WTF? How did a prestige class this powerful get into the book with the Healer and the Marshal?

2.Is having a 24 HD elder elemental and being able to polymorph into one yourself worth losing 5 caster levels? Is this a partial-casting progression prestige class worth taking over a full caster build?

1. Its a WotC book, its mandatory

2. Yes, if its what you envisage for your character. Don't let Caster levels dictate what your Character is going to be in the end

[Kylarra]

I think the premise is pretty cool, albeit poorly implemented, much like many PrCs.

[Fizban]

Hmm. I was just trying to think of a way to buff the Bonded Summoner and other companion classes, and I think I found a reason why it's so hard: the druid's basic animal companion and cohorts from the Leadership feat are basically as powerful as you can get without just giving the player two full characters. And they don't subtract any from your own abilities. So, if that's already as powerful as it gets, you can't have a prestige class that gives something up to get a companion because no one else has to give anything up to get the same thing.

No idea how you'd fix this aside from banning leadership and yanking the animal companion though.

[Starbuck_II]

So I had Miniatures' Handbook open and noticed this class.

Long story short, it's an arcane spellcasting prestige class (enterable at Wiz 3) that replaces your familiar with an elemental.

At level 1 of the class, you have a Medium elemental (4 HD). Every two levels you gain in the class, the size of the elemental increases - to Elder Elemental (24 HD) at level 9.

You can be a level 12 character with a 24 HD elemental as your familiar.

At level 10 of the class (so character level 13), you can polymorph into a 24 HD elemental yourself once a day, for 10 hours a day.

The downside? 5/10 casting progression.

So, two points:
1.WTF? How did a prestige class this powerful get into the book with the Healer and the Marshal?

2.Is having a 24 HD elder elemental and being able to polymorph into one yourself worth losing 5 caster levels? Is this a partial-casting progression prestige class worth taking over a full caster build?

1. They forgot they were trying to be weak. Oh snap I did. Thehealer is subpar (but it is a caster) and the Marshal has nice stuff but only for dips.

2. No.
Think about it, the EE has lots of hps but what else does it get? Not much.
Spells offer buffs, debuffs, and polymorph line.
If it was 7/10 progression I could see it (still not be very strong but not sucky as is).

[Set]

The class could pretty much be replaced by a couple of Feats that allow you to swap out your Familiar for an Elemental and then progress it.

Standard Improved Familiar (small elemental) at 5th, then another Feat to progress that elemental as you increase, to say, Medium at 7th, Large at 9th, Huge at 11th, Greater at 13th and Elder at 15th. Since Elder Elementals can go all the way to 48 HD, you could even allow it to progress in HD past 15th level, say, adding 2 to 4 HD / level after, up until 20th.

The feat would only work for a character who continued to advance Familiar progression, 'though, like a straight Wizard or Sorcerer.