[3.5] Warmage: Better off as a Prestige Class?

[Hurlbut]

As you know the headline already; is the Warmage better off being a prestige class than a full class?

[SilveryCord]

Probably, yeah. Unfortunately, it isn't.

[Doc Roc]

Definitely. And it can be found as one in the Age of Mortals Dragonlance book, the last (that I know of) 1st party dragonlance book.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

In Dragonlance: Age of Mortals, there's a War Mage (note the space) PrC. In 5 levels, it grants two bonus metamagic feats, the ability to add +3 damage per die to all damaging spells, and the ability to grant 2 or 3 allies a +10 morale bonus to AC. Not only would warmage be better as a PrC, it already is better.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[Myrmex]

It depends on the sort of game you're running. Personally, I think the wizard would be better off as a warmage, but some people are really attached to having casters being more powerful than everyone, no matter what.

[Johanas]

I have to ask....would a straight class Warmage be able to qualify for War Mage? And would the Warmage Edge stack with the other extra dice? Hmm...

[Catch]

It depends on the sort of game you're running. Personally, I think the wizard would be better off as a warmage, but some people are really attached to having casters being more powerful than everyone, no matter what.

And in only five posts, the debate turns to "Wizards are Overpowered." Nice and passive-aggressive too.

Anyway, the Warmage as a PrC isn't an awful idea - depending on what you include - as it partially makes up for the lost schools of an Evocation specialist or enhances the capabilities of a generalist who likes dealing damage. At present, Warmage is an NPC class at worst and at best a decent choice for an Ultimate Magus.

[FMArthur]

Well, if there were more than just the trio of Warmage, Dread Necromancer and Beguiler, you could replace specialist wizards pretty well. The problem is that they are generally weaker than wizards, so as long as the wizard class still exists the better choice is a specialist wizard. Beguilers are the only one that actually does what he's supposed to as well as a wizard could, plus other goodies.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Well, if there were more than just the trio of Warmage, Dread Necromancer and Beguiler, you could replace specialist wizards pretty well. The problem is that they are generally weaker than wizards, so as long as the wizard class still exists the better choice is a specialist wizard. Beguilers are the only one that actually does what he's supposed to as well as a wizard could, plus other goodies.

I'd put DN on the same power level as Beguiler. Yes, it's weaker than a Wizard, but IMHO that's a good thing.

And Arguskos made a couple homebrew specialists along those lines to replace the Wizard completely. Pretty good stuff.

[Iorthol]

Why be a PrC? It's an evocation specialized wizard who can't do anything else.
They're one of the worst classes I've ever seen, because the moment you're not blasting a bad guy, you're completely and utterly useless.
Even more useless than a fighter with no skill class levels.


Also, on beguilers.
I'm playing one in a 3rd level game.
We need to stop fighting zombies and spiders! Rawr!

[woodenbandman]

Quit ripping on warmages. They're not horrible. They get cloudkill. They get Black Tentacles. They're entirely decent.

[AstralFire]

Also Warmages work decently with PrCs that boost their spells known, like Exalted Arcanist and Rainbow Servant. If you made Warmage Edge a boost to penetrate SR instead... that'd be good.

[arguskos]

I'd put DN on the same power level as Beguiler. Yes, it's weaker than a Wizard, but IMHO that's a good thing.

And Arguskos made a couple homebrew specialists along those lines to replace the Wizard completely. Pretty good stuff.

1. Thanks for the prop there Sstoopidtallkid.

2. I personally think that the Warmage is somewhat underpowered, since it doesn't have the better new blaster spells, such as Radiant Assault, Darkbolt, and other great spells it SHOULD have. Further, more damage is not the answer, status conditions are. The Rebalanced Compendium, from Brilliant Gameologists, has a wonderful section about increasing damage on spells and giving energy spells status conditions that matter. It's quite nice.

[Riffington]

Also, on beguilers.
I'm playing one in a 3rd level game.
We need to stop fighting zombies and spiders! Rawr!

Zombies never disbelieve illusions. You can have fun with this.

[Doc Roc]

1. Thanks for the prop there Sstoopidtallkid.

2. I personally think that the Warmage is somewhat underpowered, since it doesn't have the better new blaster spells, such as Radiant Assault, Darkbolt, and other great spells it SHOULD have. Further, more damage is not the answer, status conditions are. The Rebalanced Compendium, from Brilliant Gameologists, has a wonderful section about increasing damage on spells and giving energy spells status conditions that matter. It's quite nice.

Can I get an outbound link to the rebalanced compendium? I really should move to BG from 339...

[arguskos]

Tide: Ta-da! Linkage!

[paddyfool]

Well, if there were more than just the trio of Warmage, Dread Necromancer and Beguiler

Well, there's the Duskblade. Not sure that it offers much in the way of casting that any of the others don't, but it does make for a reasonable gish straight out of the box.

[arguskos]

Tide, I've been wondering what you think of the Compendium? I've wanted a good rules guru's opinions on it for awhile now.

[Hurlbut]

Zombies never disbelieve illusions. You can have fun with this.

But aren't they mindless?

[BRC]

But aren't they mindless?

Hence why they can't disbelieve illusions. They see the wall there, and even though it wasn't there a second ago, and you are attacking them through it, THEY THINK THERE IS A WALL THERE.

[Myrmex]

But aren't they mindless?

As long as the illusion spell is a figment, they are SCREWED.

[Seffbasilisk]

No one's yet answered the question. Is it possible, to be a Warmage/War Mage?

[Hurlbut]

Well if I take the Zombie and spell Silent Image as example, the zombie does not 'disbelieve' unless it actually interact with whatever is produced by Silent Image. From what I can see, the typical zombie do have a Will Save.

[AstralFire]

Double the War, double the magic. That's the statement of the great mint of Doublecast Gum.

[Myrmex]

No one's yet answered the question. Is it possible, to be a Warmage/War Mage?

Yes.


stuffstuffstuff

and things

[DragoonWraith]

I'm actually going to say no. Warmage, along with Dread Necromancer and Beguiler, are specifically supposed to be more limited arcane base classes than the Wizard or Sorcerer (for very good reason), and it makes sense for the Blaster archetype to be represented in this grouping.

The problem with Warmage isn't that it is a base class, it's just that it doesn't get enough nice things. Armored Mage isn't so hot, even though it is fitting, and fully half of the Sudden Metamagic feats are wasted on the spontaneous Warmage anyway. Warmage Edge is the only unique thing the class gets, and it isn't even that good - a great idea, but it increases MAD, and doesn't offer nearly enough reward for the effort. Past level 6 or so, you're better off ignoring it and pumping other things.

If Warmage had Int-based spellcasting (to complement Warmage Edge), his spell list was considerably better (still blast-y, but at least make it a better blaster than the stock Wizard - remember, a Blaster Wizard is actually fairly well balanced, so if you're removing the utility spells, you can definitely afford to give the Warmage better blasting), and had another unique class feature or two, it would be a solid class. As is, nope.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

No one's yet answered the question. Is it possible, to be a Warmage/War Mage?

What about a Beguiler Beguiler? Or a Witchalock Witchalock?

[AstralFire]

Making the Warmage SAD is not a good solution. It effectively is a SAD class as it is, it just doesn't go very far on that one stat.

[DragoonWraith]

Making the Warmage SAD is not a good solution. It effectively is a SAD class as it is, it just doesn't go very far on that one stat.

I agree, but I think Int makes more sense for a tactician/mage (which is how I generally see them; I suppose that's not directly stated in the fluff), and at least it would mean that Warmage Edge isn't completely worthless. Yes, they're pretty SAD, but that Single Ability is Cha - not Int. Warmage Edge functions on Int, and is therefore more-or-less ignored. Besides, Int is the better ability in most cases anyway, especially for a non-Conjurer... And like I said, they need better spells, and at least a couple more class features.

Mostly, my point was that the Warmage deserves to exist as a base class. That base class just needs to be better than the Warmage currently is.

[AstralFire]

The Charisma stays. -growls-