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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    A Monk/Rogue multiclass combination, even with Ascetic Rogue, is generally on the weak side. There are some nice plusses (good saves, WIS bonus to AC if unarmored), but the rest of what you get is rather weak compared to the Rogue abilities you don't get. And you'll have to deal with the possible multiclassing limitations. However, you can make the combo work for you.

    With 1 level of Monk you're eligible to train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide). Completing this training lets you make a 10' adjustment whenever you have the option to take a 5' step. This alone can be a major tactical advantage, and is probably the best reason to dip into the Monk class. (Not having any Monk levels necessitates 224 consecutive DC 21 Use Magic Device checks without failure to enable training with the Sparring Dummy.) A 10' adjustment can help get you into flanking position for sneak attack, and it still doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.

    1 level of Monk also gets you Improved Unarmed Strike, which is a requirement for the useful Snap Kick feat (Tome of Battle). However, since Bracers of Striking (Magic of FaerŻn) only cost 1,310 gp and also grant that feat, this isn't huge. Your unarmed damage is OK, but isn't significant because a Rogue's main damage comes from sneak attack. Flurry of Blows, without improvement, is only going to help if you can only hit on a natural 20; it's nearly useless since it lessens your chance of hitting and doing sneak attack damage. The 1st level bonus feats are also pretty much useless: Improved Grapple requires Strength, which is the most common dump stat for a Rogue, so you take Stunning Fist and maybe get one stun in a day.

    A 2nd level of Monk is where things get more interesting. Your saves improve. The Flurry of Blows penalty drops, but it's still a so-so ability. The bonus feats remain weak: Improved Disarm imposes a light weapon penalty because you're probably doing so unarmed; and Improved Trip is again dependent on Strength, your dump stat. You gain Evasion, which you already get from Rogue level 2. Too bad, right? No, this is the good part. The Invisible Fist alternative class feature (Exemplars of Evil, page 21) lets you trade Monk evasion for the ability to become invisible as a swift action for 1 round, every 3 rounds. That's pretty much a guaranteed full round of sneak attacks. With 10' adjustments allowing you to get into flanking position most of the time, this will let you spend most of melee doing full rounds of sneak attack. That's pretty neat.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    A 2nd level of Monk is where things get more interesting. Your saves improve. The Flurry of Blows penalty drops, but it's still a so-so ability. The bonus feats remain weak: Improved Disarm imposes a light weapon penalty because you're probably doing so unarmed; and Improved Trip is again dependent on Strength, your dump stat.
    Actually, those are the 6th level bonus feats. At 2nd level you gain Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by good_lookin_gus View Post
    Actually, those are the 6th level bonus feats. At 2nd level you gain Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows.
    Right you are. Still, this doesn't change my assessment that these bonus feats don't add a lot to the class combination. Combat Reflexes would be the obvious choice, but in practice this isn't going to give you too many more attack opportunities. It's of limited use until you get the Opportunist class ability and Savvy Rogue feat, which won't be before 15th level (Rogue level 13). Normally Combat Reflexes would be required for entry into Shadowdancer, but getting Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight is less important with Invisible Fist.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    I've played one there alot of fun.

    I would go human.

    1 level of monk.
    the rest rogue/ rogue prc.

    human bonus feat should be kung fu genius.
    Allows you to focus on Dex and int.
    Grab weapon finesse at 3rd. Along with asthetic rogue.
    Grab snap kick at some point and two weapon fighting...
    and always try to flank untill you can afford a constant invis or other SA trigger you can get a ton of attacks and get a bunch of SA's off in a round.
    its awsome
    When the end comes i shall remember you.

    I sorry i fail Englimish...(appologise for Spelling/Grammer Errors) Please don't correct my spelling or grammer eaither.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Here's a really simple guide to being a Rogue:

    1) The most important Skills are Use Magic Device, Tumble, Listen, and Spot. In particular, Use Magic Device lets you use Wands easily, which can let you do pretty much anything you want (if you can afford it). If you want to ambush enemies or scout, take Hide and Move Silently. If your DM uses a lot of traps take Search and Disable Device. Everything else is either very build specific or fluff.

    2) Decide whether you want to be a ranged Rogue or a melee Rogue. Ranged is safer, but takes a lot more feats. Melee is easier and often more effective, but more dangerous (because it's easier for enemies to hit back).

    3) Decide what feats you want. Here is a list of Sneak Attack feats. And the official Feat index. And crystalkeep and realmshelp.

    In my opinion, the most important Rogue feats are:
    • Dragonfire Strike: Turns your Sneak Attack damage into energy damage, bypassing Precision Damage immunity, assuming your DM is nice about it (some argue that you must first deal the Sneak Attack damage before it becomes energy damage). Also adds +1d6 damage, which is nifty.
    • Staggering Strike: Enemy must Save (DC = damage) or be staggered for 1 round when you Sneak Attack them with a melee attack. Ridiculously useful against boss enemies, in that it prevents them from making a full attack or casting a full round action spells.
    • Craven: +1 damage per character level on every Sneak Attack. The equivalent of Power Attack without reducing your To-Hit bonus.
    • Darkstalker: Enemies with Tremorsense, Scent, Blindsight, etc, must still make a Spot check in order to locate you when you Hide. This makes it much easier for you to sneak up on enemies.
    • Two Weapon Fighting: If you're limited to core only-ish feats, then just take the TWF feat tree. It will give you more attacks.


    4) Figure out how to qualify for Sneak Attack on every attack you make. Here's a handy list:

    Spoiler
    Show
    Ways to Qualify for Sneak Attack:

    1) Ambush: If you ambush your enemy, you get a free Surprise Round against them. A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act. Remember the the Surprise Round is only a Standard Action. So you'll need Greater Manyshot or Pounce (remember that you can still Charge if your actions are limited) to get a full attack.

    2) Win Initiative: If you win Initiative, you enemy is still Flat Footed, and still denied their Dex bonus.

    3) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures. Here's a good list of magic items to do just that.

    4) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap and easy to train.

    5) Still More Flanking: Invest in Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

    6) Yet More Flanking: Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII) allows you to flank from any square. Combine with a reach weapon, and now you can stand next to or even behind a friend and still flank an enemy.

    7) Tome of Battle Flanking: Island of Blades, a Shadow Hand stance allows you to flank from any square as long as you and an ally are both adjacent to the enemy. You can get this from a one level dip into Swordsage, or by taking the Martial Study -> Martial Stance feats.

    8) Dear Gods, How Much Flanking Do We Need?: Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar, if you can cast arcane spells. Now you have a full time friend to Flank with, and he can Share Spells with you (like Alter Self and Greater Invisibility).

    9) Armor Lock (Complete Scoundrel): 1st level spell that works on enemies wearing armor for multiple rounds. Buy a wand.

    10) Invisibility: Note that most Invisibility effects duplicate the Invisibility spell, which ends as soon as you make your first attack. So it's only useful at low levels, and for traditional scouting and ambushing tactics. The Ninja has Invisibility that lasts for 1 round, but with limited uses per day.

    11) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

    12) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) to ignore your own 20% miss chance.

    13) Skill Tricks: Again, check out the Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks can be very useful.

    14) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

    15) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

    16) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a variety of spells and alchemical items that do this, plus the Focalor (Tome of Magic) or Kas vestige (Dragon Magazine 341), the Sand Dancer feat (Sandstorm), and others.

    17) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

    18) Hide in Plain Site: There are many ways to get this. My favorite is a dip into Warlock let's you Hide in Plain Site every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

    19) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members. Or invest in Handle animal and buy mules, which are a cheap and effective Grapple partner.

    20) Net, Razor Net, Lasso: Each of these is a touch attack that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats, because touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable. Though I would definitely invest in Spell Storing weapons, and find spells that deal Dex damage/penalties. Here's a list of ways to deal Dex damage.

    21) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But it works well at low levels if you're only making 1 attack per turn. Can be augmented to a limited degree with the Insightful Feint spell (Spell Compendium), and if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat (Drow of the Underdark) it works for a full attack.

    22) Telling Blow (PHBII): When you crit, you also deal Sneak Attack. I'm not a fan of this method. It doesn't double your Sneak Attack if you flank and crit, WotC has made it clear that it just let's you qualify. So at best 30% of your attacks get Sneak Attack. There are many better uses for your feats, IMO.

    23) More Tome of Battle Craziness: There are a bunch of maneuvers which render your enemy Flat Footed or otherwise deny them their Dex bonus, especially in the Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand disciplines. You can also get Sneak Attack via the Assassin's Stance, which still qualifies you for the best Sneak Attack feats (Staggering Strike, Craven, etc). So in many ways a Swordsage is a better Sneak Attacker then the Rogue. (Or you can go Rogue 1/Swordsage X or Swordsage X/Nightsong Enforcer 1 so that you can use other stances).

    24) Confound the Bigfolk (Races of the Wild): It has some very specific mechanics you have to follow, but basically if you're two sizes smaller then your enemy then you can move into his square, and the next round heís Flat Footed against you, and when other enemies attack you they have a 50% chance of hitting the enemy in your square instead of you.


    That should pretty much do it for you. But really, don't worry about being too powerful or whatnot. Just have a fun time roleplaying. Your DM (probably) won't screw with you too much in combat, so you don't have to worry about optimizing unless you play in a group of jerks.

  6. - Top - End - #36

    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    You may want to try out for Assassin as a Monk/Rogue. See if your DM will let you stack Arcane Trickster on top of that for even more fun.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Any reason the OP isn't considering Ninja? are they really that bad? That's the first thing I thought of when I read "Monk/Rogue."

    Or alternatively, a Ninja-esque PrC like SSN.

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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharaoh's Fist View Post
    You may want to try out for Assassin as a Monk/Rogue. See if your DM will let you stack Arcane Trickster on top of that for even more fun.
    Do you guys think a Monk1/ Swashbuckler 3/ Rogue x is any good.. taking daring outlaw and aesthetic rogue and kung fu genious..

    It would allow you to concentrate on Dex and Int.
    You would get unarmed strikes as a 16 monk (20 if you take supiror unarmed).
    full SA.
    Int to DMG
    Int to AC
    When the end comes i shall remember you.

    I sorry i fail Englimish...(appologise for Spelling/Grammer Errors) Please don't correct my spelling or grammer eaither.

  9. - Top - End - #39

    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Swashbuckler syngergizes well with Rogue.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharaoh's Fist View Post
    Swashbuckler syngergizes well with Rogue.
    Ya and with kungfu genious it kinda does with monk as well.
    When the end comes i shall remember you.

    I sorry i fail Englimish...(appologise for Spelling/Grammer Errors) Please don't correct my spelling or grammer eaither.

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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Any reason the OP isn't considering Ninja? are they really that bad? That's the first thing I thought of when I read "Monk/Rogue."

    Or alternatively, a Ninja-esque PrC like SSN.
    Ninja really sucks, IMO. The class is more MAD, Sudden Strike is harder to trigger then Sneak Attack, and all of the other class abilities can be duplicated by affordable magic items.

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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Any reason the OP isn't considering Ninja? are they really that bad? That's the first thing I thought of when I read "Monk/Rogue."
    Generally speaking, I would be a rogue anyway. I prefer speedy characters to powerful ones. I just liked the idea of a rogue who could go unarmed. Imagine going up against one of those Lawful Stupid paladin types who wouldn't hit a defenseless person, and didn't know I had taken a level of monk. I win Initiative! sure, it's a bit of a stretch, but I'm good at BS'ing like that. I could come up with hundreds of uses for unarmed combat.

    Formerly known as "Herpestidae."
    Most of my posts are done by mobile. Expect typos.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    Things don't magically stop being fun when you reach a certain age.

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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post

    4) Figure out how to qualify for Sneak Attack on every attack you make. Here's a handy list:

    Spoiler
    Show

    Ways to Qualify for Sneak Attack:

    1) Ambush: If you ambush your enemy, you get a free Surprise Round against them. A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act. Remember the the Surprise Round is only a Standard Action. So you'll need Greater Manyshot or Pounce (remember that you can still Charge if your actions are limited) to get a full attack.

    2) Win Initiative: If you win Initiative, you enemy is still Flat Footed, and still denied their Dex bonus.

    3) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures. Here's a good list of magic items to do just that.

    4) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap and easy to train.

    5) Still More Flanking: Invest in Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

    6) Yet More Flanking: Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII) allows you to flank from any square. Combine with a reach weapon, and now you can stand next to or even behind a friend and still flank an enemy.

    7) Tome of Battle Flanking: Island of Blades, a Shadow Hand stance allows you to flank from any square as long as you and an ally are both adjacent to the enemy. You can get this from a one level dip into Swordsage, or by taking the Martial Study -> Martial Stance feats.

    8) Dear Gods, How Much Flanking Do We Need?: Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar, if you can cast arcane spells. Now you have a full time friend to Flank with, and he can Share Spells with you (like Alter Self and Greater Invisibility).

    9) Armor Lock: 1st level spell from Complete Scoundrel that works on enemies wearing armor. Buy a wand.

    10) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

    11) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) to ignore your 20% miss chance.

    12) Skill Tricks: Again, check out the Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks can be very useful.

    13) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

    14) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

    15) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this.

    16) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

    17) Hide in Plain Site: There are many ways to get this. My favorite is a dip into Warlock let's you Hide in Plain Site every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

    18) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members. Or invest in Handle animal and buy mules, which are a cheap and effective Grapple partner.

    19) Net, Razor Net, Lasso: Each of these is a touch attack that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats, because touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable. Though I would definitely invest in Spell Storing weapons, and find spells that deal Dex damage/penalties. Here's a list of ways to deal Dex damage.

    20) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But it works well at low levels if you're not using TWF, and if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat (Drow of the Underdark), it works for a full attack.

    21) Telling Blow (PHBII): When you crit, you also deal Sneak Attack. I'm not a fan of this method. It doesn't double your Sneak Attack if you flank and crit, WotC has made it clear that it just let's you qualify. So at best 30% of your attacks get Sneak Attack. There are many better uses for your feats, IMO.

    22) More Tome of Battle Craziness: There are a bunch of manuevers which render your enemy Flat Footed or otherwise deny them their Dex bonus, especially in the Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand disciplines. You can also get Sneak Attack via the Assassin's Stance, which still qualifies you for the best Sneak Attack feats (Staggering Strike, Craven, etc). So in many ways a Swordsage is a better Sneak Attacker then the Rogue. (Or you can go Rogue 1/Swordsage X or Swordsage X/Nightsong Enforcer 1 so that you can use other stances).


    That should pretty much do it for you. But really, don't worry about being too powerful or whatnot. Just have a fun time roleplaying. Your DM (probably) won't screw with you too much in combat, so you don't have to worry about optimizing unless you play in a group of jerks.
    What about fienting?

    From d20
    Feinting in Combat
    You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it canít dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your targetís Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers.

    If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.


    What about invisible fist? available at 1st level, great invisibility for every 1 round in 3.

    Seems odd that your list didn't mention those.

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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forbiddenwar View Post
    What about fienting?

    From d20
    Feinting in Combat
    You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it canít dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your targetís Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers.

    If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.


    What about invisible fist? available at 1st level, great invisibility for every 1 round in 3.

    Seems odd that your list didn't mention those.
    Feinting is on my list at #20. Though Feinting is generally a bad idea, since it takes a feat to use as a Move Action, and only applies to your next melee attack (one attack). In general, a Rogue (even a 1st level Rogue) should be making 2+ attacks every turn whenever possible.

    I'm not familiar with Invisible Fist. If you cite a book and pg number, I'd be happy to look it up and add it to the list if it's viable.

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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    I'm not familiar with Invisible Fist. If you cite a book and pg number, I'd be happy to look it up and add it to the list if it's viable.
    IIRC, it's an Alternate Class Feature for monks in Exemplars of Evil. I forget the precise mechanics though.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by RagnaroksChosen View Post
    Do you guys think a Monk1/ Swashbuckler 3/ Rogue x is any good.. taking daring outlaw and aesthetic rogue and kung fu genious..

    It would allow you to concentrate on Dex and Int.
    You would get unarmed strikes as a 16 monk (20 if you take supiror unarmed).
    full SA.
    Int to DMG
    Int to AC
    There are all sorts of problems with this. First, it's Ascetic Rogue, not aesthetic. Ascetic is rigorously simple; aesthetic is flower arranging.

    Second, you lose the multiclassing benefits of Ascetic Rogue when you add in Swashbuckler levels.

    Third, you face multiclassing XP penalties of 40% when you have two different classes that are more than 1 level behind your most advanced class. This sucks, a lot.

    Fourth, it's Kung Fu Genius, not genious.

    Fifth, Kung Fu Genius helps with Monk special abilities that normally rely on Wisdom. That list of abilities has only one entry, their AC Bonus. You'd still need Wisdom for Spot and Listen (skills that are important for almost any Rogue), as well as Sense Motive.

    Sixth, you don't get "full SA". Daring Outlaw only combines Rogue and Swashbuckler levels for sneak attack damage. Your Monk levels would detract from sneak attack progression.

    Seventh, by taking these three feats you're not satisfying more important feat needs for a (mostly) Rogue build, such as Craven (Champions of Ruin), Darkstalker (Lords of Madness), and Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel). And any unarmed strike build requires Snap Kick (Tome of Battle).

    So no, I don't think this is a good combination. You lose far more than you gain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Forbiddenwar View Post
    What about invisible fist? available at 1st level, great invisibility for every 1 round in 3.
    Invisible Fist is not available at 1st level.
    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    I'm not familiar with Invisible Fist. If you cite a book and pg number, I'd be happy to look it up and add it to the list if it's viable.
    I referenced both the source and mechanics in my first post.
    Last edited by Curmudgeon; 2009-09-09 at 04:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    ^Does any sane DM acctually use the XP penalty rules?
    I'd take monk/scout if I took anything like you are trying. There is actual synergy.
    Last edited by deuxhero; 2009-09-09 at 04:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by deuxhero View Post
    ^Does any sane DM acctually use the XP penalty rules?
    Of course. I do, as do all the DMs I play with. This cuts way back on the power creep of people dipping into multiple base classes.

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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    IIRC, it's an Alternate Class Feature for monks in Exemplars of Evil. I forget the precise mechanics though.
    Ah, there it is. A Monk can give up Evasion and Improved Evasion. You gain the ability to turn Invisible for 1 round as an Immediate Action, but you must wait 3 rounds to activate it again. At 9th level, you can Blink for a number of rounds equal to your Wis mod.

    The Invisibility mechanic is pretty useless for 3/4 of combat, so I don't see that as a viable strategy. The Blink mechanic is better, but it's a Supernatural effect, so you can't get out of the 20% miss chance with Pierce Magical Concealment, and thus you'd whiff on 1/5 of your attacks unless you can find some other way to overcome your own miss chance.

    If you're a Monk/Rogue and want to give up your extra Evasion for something useful, I'd much rather have Spell Reflection.

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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    A tactic only useful for underpowered melee classes but does nothing for casters...

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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Of course. I do, as do all the DMs I play with. This cuts way back on the power creep of people dipping into multiple base classes.
    Number of classes in a build is in no way indicative of power level.

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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by AslanCross View Post
    Now the problem with Monk/Rogue is that you spread out your ability scores too thinly. The Monk wants decent ability scores in Strength, Dex, Con, and Wisdom. The Rogue doesn't really need Strength, but would like Dex, Con, Intelligence, and (depending on what you want him/her to do) Charisma. This is cited as one of the biggest problems of the Monk: Multiple ability dependency, or MAD. It's hard to prioritize ability scores if you have so many that need boosting.
    Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I would see a MAD reduction from playing a monk/rogue. Strength becomes less important, because you are relying on the extra damage die from sneak attack. And since this character won't be making use of two-handed weapons or power attack, it really isn't that big of a deal.

    With the Kung-Fu Genius feat, you can basically eliminate wisdom as a necessary attribute. True, you will still have skills that rely on them, but a rogue has those skills and doesn't really need wisdom, so the extra skill points you'd get from putting a good score into intelligence would make up for that.

    So, really, in the end, a monk/rogue would only need Dex, Con, and Int to fulfill their design niche.

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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    Number of classes in a build is in no way indicative of power level.
    It generally is, if we're talking about the same classes. Here we're talking about Rogue and Monk classes. Rogue is a fairly solid class, with only two "dead" levels (14 and 20). Still, Rogue 20 is probably going to be less powerful than a multiclass combination of Rogue with others. And do I really have to compare Monk 20 to anything else involving a Monk dip? The dip is going to be superior for anything reasonable.

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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    It generally is, if we're talking about the same classes. Here we're talking about Rogue and Monk classes. Rogue is a fairly solid class, with only two "dead" levels (14 and 20). Still, Rogue 20 is probably going to be less powerful than a multiclass combination of Rogue with others. And do I really have to compare Monk 20 to anything else involving a Monk dip? The dip is going to be superior for anything reasonable.
    Compare, then:

    Wizard 20
    v.
    Duskblade 5/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 9/Abjurant Champion 5
    v.
    Rogue 2/Druid 1/Bard 3/Fochlucan Lyrist 10/Mystic Theurge 4

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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    Compare, then:

    Wizard 20
    How does that have anything to do with Rogues or Monks?

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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    How does that have anything to do with Rogues or Monks?
    He's talking about multiclassing = power level.

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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pharaoh's Fist View Post
    He's talking about multiclassing = power level.
    So? That's off-topic for a Monk/Rogue multiclass thread. Talk about Rogue 20 versus Rogue X/something else, or Monk 20 versus Monk X/something else. Let's try to keep the discussion relevant.
    Last edited by Curmudgeon; 2009-09-09 at 05:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    So? That's off-topic for a Monk/Rogue multiclass thread. Talk about Rogue 20 versus Rogue X/something else, or Monk 20 versus Monk X/something else. Let's try to keep the discussion relevant.
    He's responding to the statement that "Of course. I do, as do all the DMs I play with. This cuts way back on the power creep of people dipping into multiple base classes." That's a general statement, referring to the game as a whole, not just the builds being discussed.
    On that topic:Most of the more powerful classes(tier 2 or 1) have very few builds that would activate multiclass penalties(generally either Gish or Theurge builds, which are weaker than going straight in the base class). The weaker classes, however, get a significant power boost from being allowed to multiclass freely. We're talking here about a tier 4 being allowed to multiclass with a tier 3(yes, I know, take that debate elsewhere). There is no combination of those 2 that will boost it to a tier 2 build, so why would you limit the weaker classes in a way that doesn't hinder the stronger ones?
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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gan The Grey View Post
    Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I would see a MAD reduction from playing a monk/rogue. Strength becomes less important, because you are relying on the extra damage die from sneak attack. And since this character won't be making use of two-handed weapons or power attack, it really isn't that big of a deal.

    With the Kung-Fu Genius feat, you can basically eliminate wisdom as a necessary attribute. True, you will still have skills that rely on them, but a rogue has those skills and doesn't really need wisdom, so the extra skill points you'd get from putting a good score into intelligence would make up for that.

    So, really, in the end, a monk/rogue would only need Dex, Con, and Int to fulfill their design niche.
    That's a good point. I totally forgot about Kung-Fu Genius.

    That name still makes me chuckle. It brings back images of badly-dubbed Friday afternoon movies.


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    Default Re: Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Good or Bad?

    Last edited by Pharaoh's Fist; 2009-09-09 at 11:43 PM.

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