Turning a kobold into a god, sans Pun-pun?

[DataPacRat]

I've heard the odd comment that in 3/3.5e, for some high-level character builds, you have to start planning for pretty much from level 1. And I just noticed a prestige class that I'd like my current kobold character to level into as soon as possible: Dragon Ascendant, which, at level 10, turns the character into a "quasi-deity", the term Deities & Demigods uses for beings with Divine Rank 0.

Yes, I'm planning on advancing a kobold to at least a quasi-deity, by the RAW, /without/ Pun-pun's cheesiness. (Let me put it this way - when I mentioned Pun-pun to my DM, he said that if I could build it, I could play it.)

So, then, the question is... how /quickly/ is it possible to start advancing Troondh along the path of divinity? Currently, he's Dragonwrought, Cleric 6 / Swift Wing 1; Base Attack 3; Str 6, Con 12, Int 16. I mention these stats because the Dragon Ascendant requires BAB +30, and the feats Draconic Knowledge (which requires Int 19), Fast Healing (req Con 25), Improved Speed (Str 13), plus three other feats.

That Base Attack Bonus requirement seems likely to need the most levelling... is there any way to increase BAB by more than 1 per level?

Or, perhaps, I'm looking at this from entirely the wrong angle; are there any other classes which are faster at achieving divinity than Dragon Ascendant?

[Myrmex]

Yeah... you're going to need 23 more HD. Then you cast that one cleric spell that gives you a BAB equal to your character level (and persist it).

[Johel]

Dragonwrought, Cleric 6 / Swift Wing 1; Base Attack 3; Str 6, Con 12, Int 16

...I don't know the "Swift Wing" and "Dragonwrought" class. But shouldn't your BAB be at least 4, given you're a Cleric 6 ?

BAB +30 : Take a lot of levels.
No other way for your BAB. You can always increase your Attack Bonus but your BASE Attack Bonus never increase with spells and such.

Int 19 : Take 12 levels OR make 3 wishes.
Probably the easier, here. And that's taking into account the fact that you need a "natural" Int of 19. If you can combine it with items to meet the requirements, then it's a lot easier.

Con 25 : Take a lot of levels OR increase your size a lot AND make 5 wishes.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingM...tm#sizeandType
Going from Small (kobold) to Colossal gives +18 Con, +36 Str.
There's probably a supplement who does that just fine.
The Wishes can grant you a +5 Con. If you MD is fine with it, Wishes should allow you to increase your size, though it's going to cost XP.
Or you can level up until you get 25 Con. About 52 levels...

[Myrmex]

BAB +30 : Take a lot of levels.
No other way for your BAB. You can always increase your Attack Bonus but your BASE Attack Bonus never increase with spells and such.

Not quite true:
[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm]The soul of Clericzilla[/quote] (the heart is DMM: persist & a lot of Nightsticks)

Tenser's Transformation

Con 25 : Take a lot of levels OR increase your size a lot AND make 5 wishes.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingM...tm#sizeandType
Going from Small (kobold) to Colossal gives +18 Con, +36 Str.
There's probably a supplement who does that just fine.
The Wishes can grant you a +5 Con.
Or you can level up until you get 25 Con. About 52 levels...

Polymorph or Shapechange, combined with a tome +5 & a item +6, and you should hit it without a problem. By level 30, it is incredibly doable.

[Bayar]

Dragonwrought is a kobold feat in races of the dragon that turns kobolds into Type: Dragon and gives them a skill bonus depending on their heritage and no penalties to stats due to aging.

[DataPacRat]

...I don't know the "Swift Wing" and "Dragonwrought" class. But shouldn't your BAB be at least 4, given you're a Cleric 6 ?

Sorry, I seem to have left out a word there: 'Cloistered Cleric', which gives up some combat abilities for better skill points and the Knowledge domain.

BAB +30 : Take a lot of levels.
No other way for your BAB. You can always increase your Attack Bonus but your BASE Attack Bonus never increase with spells and such.

I was afraid of that.

Okay, then... are there any feats, prestige classes, or suchlike in any WotC books that improve BAB better than levelling as a bog-standard fighter would?

Int 19 : Take 12 levels OR make 3 wishes.
Probably the easier, here. And that's taking into account the fact that you need a "natural" Int of 19. If you can combine it with items to meet the requirements, then it's a lot easier.

Wishes are only 5,000 XP a pop, so Wishing seems a more efficient way to use XP to increase a stat than levelling.

Con 25 : Take a lot of levels OR increase your size a lot AND make 5 wishes.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingM...tm#sizeandType
Going from Small (kobold) to Colossal gives +18 Con, +36 Str.
There's probably a supplement who does that just fine.
The Wishes can grant you a +5 Con. If you MD is fine with it, Wishes should allow you to increase your size, though it's going to cost XP.
Or you can level up until you get 25 Con. About 52 levels...

Okay, so this one may, in fact, be a bit tougher to meet than the BAB... indeed.

[DataPacRat]

Dragonwrought is a kobold feat in races of the dragon that turns kobolds into Type: Dragon and gives them a skill bonus depending on their heritage and no penalties to stats due to aging.

True; and that Type: Dragon is why I started looking at Dragon Ascendant (which, naturally, is only meant for 'true dragons') in the first place for my Dragonwrought kobold.

[Johel]

Not quite true:
[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm]The soul of Clericzilla

(the heart is DMM: persist & a lot of Nightsticks)

Tenser's Transformation



Polymorph or Shapechange, combined with a tome +5 & a item +6, and you should hit it without a problem. By level 30, it is incredibly doable.[/QUOTE]

Divine Power :
Hum... I always thought it was attack bonus. My bad.

[Douglas]

Okay, then... are there any feats, prestige classes, or suchlike in any WotC books that improve BAB better than levelling as a bog-standard fighter would?

No. 1 point of BAB per hit die or level is the absolute best you can get.

Okay, so this one may, in fact, be a bit tougher to meet than the BAB... indeed.

Just take Great Constitution a few times. Sure, it's an epic feat, but you're a Dragonwrought Kobold. That makes you a true dragon, and true dragons above a certain age category can take epic feats regardless of whether they actually have 21 hit dice.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dragon Ascendant requires that you be a true dragon, not just the dragon creature type. It can be argued that a dragonwrought kobold qualifies by virtue of their age category progression, but the Draconomicon goes on to explain certain physiological qualities of all true dragons which kobolds would be lacking. Furthermore, it very clearly states that the shortest lived true dragons are white dragons (page 15), and since kobolds have shorter lifespans than white dragons they must not be considered true dragons for purposes of anything found in that book. It is impossible to qualify for Dragon Ascendant with anything short of an actual dragon, not just something with the dragon creature type.

Even if that was not the case, the BAB prerequisite is probably going to be difficult to meet. Divine Power, even Persistent, is not enough to meet that requirement since it is not permanent in nature. A magic item that grants the spell's effect would work as long as there is no foreseeable end to its duration as long as it is worn. An effect with a set, non-permanent duration is not continuous even if you continue to refresh the duration, and cannot be used to meet any prerequisites. Racial HD grant their standard BAB and base save progressions even after 20, so a true dragon with 30 HD has a +30 BAB. Characters who advance by class levels are stuck using epic attack bonus after 20, so at best you can get a +20 BAB at level 20 and another +10 from 20 more epic levels, thus qualifying no sooner than 40th level. You're already short of the +20 pre-epic BAB, so your entry will be even further delayed. It would be easier to just play an exalted character and get Epic Vow of Poverty to gain divine rank 0 at level 40.

[DataPacRat]

No. 1 point of BAB per hit die or level is the absolute best you can get.

Hrmph. You'd almost think that the Powers that Be had set a firm limit, or something, on how quickly a character could advance... :P

Just take Great Constitution a few times. Sure, it's an epic feat, but you're a Dragonwrought Kobold. That makes you a true dragon, and true dragons above a certain age category can take epic feats regardless of whether they actually have 21 hit dice.

Well... for the sake of discussion, let's assume that it'll be faster for our kobold to reach level 21 than to wait around to reach Old age. So, in that case, using Great Constitution, and his level-advancement ability increases, and Wishes, and any other permanent Con-increase that comes to mind, how soon do you think he could get Fast Healing?

[Myrmex]

Okay, so this one may, in fact, be a bit tougher to meet than the BAB... indeed.

You can easily get 25 con before level 20. Likely before level 17 if you are industrious (though not with your current build).

Getting a stat over 50 is hard, getting it to 30 is pretty easy.

[DataPacRat]

Dragon Ascendant requires that you be a true dragon, not just the dragon creature type. It can be argued that a dragonwrought kobold qualifies by virtue of their age category progression, but the Draconomicon goes on to explain certain physiological qualities of all true dragons which kobolds would be lacking. Furthermore, it very clearly states that the shortest lived true dragons are white dragons (page 15), and since kobolds have shorter lifespans than white dragons they must not be considered true dragons for purposes of anything found in that book. It is impossible to qualify for Dragon Ascendant with anything short of an actual dragon, not just something with the dragon creature type.

I think this falls firmly into the camp of "DM's ruling" - good arguments can be made for or against a Dragonwrought kobold being a "true dragon". If you don't want to help with the Dragonwrought Ascendant build, feel free to suggest some other way to achieve divine rank...

Even if that was not the case, the BAB prerequisite is probably going to be difficult to meet. Divine Power, even Persistent, is not enough to meet that requirement since it is not permanent in nature. A magic item that grants the spell's effect would work as long as there is no foreseeable end to its duration as long as it is worn. An effect with a set, non-permanent duration is not continuous even if you continue to refresh the duration, and cannot be used to meet any prerequisites. Racial HD grant their standard BAB and base save progressions even after 20, so a true dragon with 30 HD has a +30 BAB. Characters who advance by class levels are stuck using epic attack bonus after 20, so at best you can get a +20 BAB at level 20 and another +10 from 20 more epic levels, thus qualifying no sooner than 40th level. You're already short of the +20 pre-epic BAB, so your entry will be even further delayed.

... which is why I was hoping someone knew a faster way to increase BAB. (Does reincarnating count? :silly: )

It would be easier to just play an exalted character and get Epic Vow of Poverty to gain divine rank 0 at level 40.

That's an odd little feat there... is it one one of WotC's books or official web-supplements?

[Random832]

PrC prerequisites do not have to be permanent to be true. The rules specifically acknowledge the possibility of having it via an item when addressing what happens if you lose the qualification.

Some books say you permanently lose all special abilities of the PrC, others simply say you cannot advance in it and lose the special abilities until you qualify again (and all are silent on, if you lose a bonus but your gains since entering the class mean you still meet/exceed the entry requirement, whether you are considered to no longer qualify)

[DataPacRat]

PrC prerequisites do not have to be permanent to be true. The rules specifically acknowledge the possibility of having it via an item when addressing what happens if you lose the qualification.

Some books say you permanently lose all special abilities of the PrC, others simply say you cannot advance in it and lose the special abilities until you qualify again (and all are silent on, if you lose a bonus but your gains since entering the class mean you still meet/exceed the entry requirement, whether you are considered to no longer qualify)

In that case... it seems that all that's needed is a semi-permanent object or effect, with the Divine Might spell cast with caster level 30, plus the various other stat boosts and feats by then, and he can start taking his first level of Dragon Ascendant at level 31, and get his Divine Rank 0 by level 40.

So... now, I get to see if there's some way to get a caster-level-30 magic-item without my kobold having to reach level 30 himself and make it then. One way might be to use various feats to boost his Caster Level - he's already got Primitive Caster, which can crank CL up by 3, depending on components. Or, maybe there's something in the Epic book about the cost of epic-level magic items...

[Douglas]

Actually, Divine Power sets your BAB equal to your character level, not your (or the spell's) caster level. A cleric 7/commoner 23 who cast Divine Power would temporarily have a BAB of 30.

[Melamoto]

BAB +30 : Take a lot of levels.
No other way for your BAB. You can always increase your Attack Bonus but your BASE Attack Bonus never increase with spells and such.

You require cleric levels. Impossible to get BAB +30 without being a monster otherwise.

[DataPacRat]

Actually, Divine Power sets your BAB equal to your character level, not your (or the spell's) caster level. A cleric 7/commoner 23 who cast Divine Power would temporarily have a BAB of 30.

Hm, good point, thanks for catching that. Okay, then, hm... is there any feat or spell or whatnot that temporary increases "character" level? :)

[Random832]

Actually, Divine Power sets your BAB equal to your character level, not your (or the spell's) caster level. A cleric 7/commoner 23 who cast Divine Power would temporarily have a BAB of 30.

Same for Tenser's transformation.

Hm, good point, thanks for catching that. Okay, then, hm... is there any feat or spell or whatnot that temporary increases "character" level? :)

The Lycanthrope template permanently increases your character level.

[DataPacRat]

Let's see if I'm reading this right... "Divine Power" in the PHB is a 4th level spell (requiring a minimum of a 7th-level caster), with a duration measured in rounds. A wondrous item with the continuous effect of "Divine Power" would have a base price of 4 * 7 * 2,000 * 4 = 224,000 gp, requiring 224 days, 112,000 gp of materials, and 8,960 XP... sound right?

[DataPacRat]

The Lycanthrope template permanently increases your character level.

Now /that/'s the sort of idea I come to this board for. :) Kobolds are noted as occasionally becoming were-dire-weasels; dire weasels have 3 HD; so our kobold can now get an extra 3 character levels, allowing him to get BAB +30 with Divine Power at only level 27 instead of 30... we've shaved three levels from his ascension already. Can we do more? :)

[Claudius Maximus]

the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th.

This might be a problem for you. You need to get HD that are not class levels if you want +30 BAB.

Divine Power uses the caster's character level, not caster level, as has been pointed out already. It is unclear whether a 30th level cleric would get +30 BAB when casting the spell. If you wore an item of Divine Power, I think it would set your BAB to your character level, not the CL of the item.

[Flickerdart]

I came up with a cheesy loop a while ago, using PAO and Awaken to give yourself infinite CHA and Magical Beast HD. Bonus HD means new feats (Great Constitution!) and more BAB. You can pull it off pre-Epic, but you'll need someone who can cast PaO and someone else with Awaken: using Mindrape or taking 10 levels in Thrallherd is the best way to accomplish this.

METHOD:
Step 1: Dominate/Geas/Mindrape/otherwise compel an Arcane caster to cast PAO on you, turning you into any animal.
Step 2: Dominate/Geas/Mindrape/otherwise compel a Druid or Archivist to cast Awaken on you. You gain +1d3 CHA, and 2 HD worth of feats.
Step 3: Get your Arcane caster to cast Enervation to remove those HD from counting for Awaken's Will save.
Step 4: Get your Arcane caster to PAO you into your original animal form.

If you Maximize the last casting of Awaken, you get 18 INT: 1 point short of the 19 you need.

[Random832]

This might be a problem for you.

Epic Attack Bonus counts as added to BAB for any purpose other than iterative attacks. The point they're making is that it doesn't follow your class's progression and it doesn't give iterative attacks.

You need to get HD that are not class levels if you want +30 BAB.

Um... all HD count towards character level, not just class levels.

Anyway, as written, Divine Power would give you 30 BAB (Including extra attacks, as in /25/20/15/10/5), though most DMs would probably rule it as giving 20BAB+5EAB (i.e. the same bonus as a fighter of the same level in the spirit of what the spell's intended to do)

An Item of Divine Power? I don't think the fluff can justify that - an item of Tenser's Transformation is dubious enough.