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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2005

    Default Re: Tier of Shadow Casters?

    Personally, I use Mouseferatu's fixes from ENworld, except for the bonus spell rule, which I made even more generous:

    1) Charisma determines the DC to save against your mysteries. Intelligence determines the highest level mystery you can cast.

    2) Grant bonus mysteries per day based on Charisma. The trick is, since you can cast each mystery you know a separate number of times per day, the bonus spells apply to each mystery. So for example, a shadowcaster with Cha 28 can use each 9th level mystery he knows an extra time per day. (Mouseferatu originally had them work more like bonus spells do for other casters, but 1. it was fiddly and lead to more bookkeeping and 2. shadowcasters can use the boost, since I don't allow them to use runestaves, knowstones or equivalent. It's kind of their special quirk.)

    3) Eliminate the rule that says you have to take mysteries in a given Path in order. If you want to jump around, so as to broaden your versatility, you can.

    4) Within a category—Apprentice, Initiate, Master—you must have at least two mysteries of any given level before you can take any mysteries of the next higher level. For instance, you must have two 1st-level mysteries before you can take any 2nds, and at least two 2nds before you can take any 3rds.

    5) Eliminate the rule that says you get a bonus feat equal to half the number of paths you have access to. Instead, you get a bonus feat equal to the total number of Paths you complete. Thus, while you are no longer required to take the entirety of a given Path, there's still encouragement to do so.

    6) You may “swap out” mysteries, just as a sorcerer does spells known. If you “un-complete” a Path in this way, however, you lose access to the bonus feat you gained from completing that Path. (You can regain access by re-completing the Path, completing a different Path and choosing that feat as your new bonus, or selecting that feat as a normal feat at your next opportunity.)

    7) Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, change the save DC from 10 + equivalent spell level + Cha to 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha. This makes them useful even against high-HD opponents, and follows the pattern for other supernatural abilities.

    Again, these are all (except for number 2) Ari Marmell, aka Mouseferatu's ideas, and NOT MINE. (I think they're really good, though)

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Chania, Greece
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Tier of Shadow Casters?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Corinthian View Post
    Personally, I use Mouseferatu's fixes from ENworld, except for the bonus spell rule, which I made even more generous:

    1) Charisma determines the DC to save against your mysteries. Intelligence determines the highest level mystery you can cast.

    2) Grant bonus mysteries per day based on Charisma. The trick is, since you can cast each mystery you know a separate number of times per day, the bonus spells apply to each mystery. So for example, a shadowcaster with Cha 28 can use each 9th level mystery he knows an extra time per day. (Mouseferatu originally had them work more like bonus spells do for other casters, but 1. it was fiddly and lead to more bookkeeping and 2. shadowcasters can use the boost, since I don't allow them to use runestaves, knowstones or equivalent. It's kind of their special quirk.)

    3) Eliminate the rule that says you have to take mysteries in a given Path in order. If you want to jump around, so as to broaden your versatility, you can.

    4) Within a category—Apprentice, Initiate, Master—you must have at least two mysteries of any given level before you can take any mysteries of the next higher level. For instance, you must have two 1st-level mysteries before you can take any 2nds, and at least two 2nds before you can take any 3rds.

    5) Eliminate the rule that says you get a bonus feat equal to half the number of paths you have access to. Instead, you get a bonus feat equal to the total number of Paths you complete. Thus, while you are no longer required to take the entirety of a given Path, there's still encouragement to do so.

    6) You may “swap out” mysteries, just as a sorcerer does spells known. If you “un-complete” a Path in this way, however, you lose access to the bonus feat you gained from completing that Path. (You can regain access by re-completing the Path, completing a different Path and choosing that feat as your new bonus, or selecting that feat as a normal feat at your next opportunity.)

    7) Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, change the save DC from 10 + equivalent spell level + Cha to 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha. This makes them useful even against high-HD opponents, and follows the pattern for other supernatural abilities.

    Again, these are all (except for number 2) Ari Marmell, aka Mouseferatu's ideas, and NOT MINE. (I think they're really good, though)
    Note that i have never played with these houserules although i have seen them in EnWorld. They are ok however he admits he hasn't playtested them. Some comments though .

    1) It is redundant since it was that way before the fixes

    2) What happens if you reselect a mystery? Does it gain the bonus to uses from charisma once or twice? Also a change that is needed but leads to the problem "reflavored" sorcerer (see below)

    3 and 4) These changes are kinda needed but i feel like they make a shadowcaster just another reflavored sorcerer (YMMV though, they are not necessarily bad, its just me advocating that with meaningful restrictions there should be meaningful benefits). They can be emulated within the 3.5 rules with runestaves (but you specifically disallow them so this change is needed).

    5) You essentially gain up to double he number of feats. Numbers may vary but the possibility is there. If the bonus feats of the shadowcaster weren't hideously weak (I mean Shadow vision? come on... Or sudden metashadow enhancing feats which need a big amount of them to be able to be used twice per day, while other casters enjoy their metamagic reducers with 2-4 feats) that would actually be a reward in itself. But it improves the situation.

    6) I heartily approve of this change

    7) I always though that SU abilities always were 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha and that the text in ToM was an omission. However note that a mystery can become a Supernatural ability way before 13th level (Fundamentals? Favored mystery?) so the level limit shouldn't exist in the first place.

    In my humble opinion these "fixes" just bring the shadowcaster closer to the sorcerer. A sorcerer with half the spells known (remember you dissallowed runestaves), MAYBE more uses (since charisma gets added twice or thrice on their mysteries), and more feats (but of woefully worse quality). The redeeming quality (Supernatural abilities) gets drowned by the fact that it affects mysteries of 1st to 3rd level (and with the restricted use of metashadow feats they will remain 1st to 3rd level spells ).
    I guess they are nice for a start though and they surely make the shadowcaster "less problematic". However you will find hard to convince someone to play this class over a sorcerer.

    Complete Shadow Magic! for Pathfinder Rules. (Google Docs PDF)
    Newest: Shadowcaster Archetypes
    WIP:Wordcasting Shadowcaster

    Previous games: Life in Hell
    as Moira

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Orc in the Playground
     
    wizuriel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2009

    Default Re: Tier of Shadow Casters?

    hmmm I misread the original fix and did the same thing The Corinthian does (assumed the +1 bonus for level 1 spells applied to all level 1 spells).

    Another change I made was spell like abilities and super natural abilities automatically refresh at nightfall (still need to rest to cast the spell mysteries). It just seemed stupid to me that a shadow caster would rest during night to keep up with the party (since most of the party would probably rest at night and not want the shadowcaster to sleep during the day).

    shadow casters are on the weak side but a fun class. The MAD I found isn't too bad, int is useful to have anyways and with CHA you can be a party face (or backup face)
    Last edited by wizuriel; 2009-09-15 at 01:01 PM.

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