A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Attribute skill points

    Our example will be a 6-INT Barbarian.

    First, lay out your stat bonuses in order from largest to smallest:
    16 STR 3
    15 DEX 2
    14 CON 2
    12 WIS 1
    10 CHA 0
    6 INT -2

    Add your class skill points (4 for a barbarian) to each row:

    STR 7
    DEX 6
    CON 6
    WIS 5
    CHA 4
    INT 2

    If at this point, any of the numbers is 0 or less, set it to 1.

    You now have seven skill points total for this level. No more than six may be spent on DEX or CON skills, no more than five may be spent on WIS skills, no more than four on CHA skills, no more than two on INT skills.

    Or, put differently, take the differences between each one and the next below
    STR 1
    DEX
    CON 1
    WIS 1
    CHA 2

    You must spend one point on a STR skill (or lose it, I suppose). Then you have one more point you can spend on any skills that use STR DEX or CON. Then the next point can be spent on any of those or a WIS skill. Then the next two points can be spent on CHA skills in addition to those already listed, and your last two skill points can be spent on any skill.

    Speak Language and Mental skill tricks are considered INT-based. Interaction skill tricks are considered CHA-based. Manipulation and Movement skill tricks are considered DEX-based.

    On first level, obviously, multiply these numbers by four.

    This scheme obviously tends to benefit people who dump INT, as it results in higher skill point totals generally for non-INT-based characters. Conversely, someone with 18 INT who dumps CHA isn't going to be able to put as many ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, etc.

    The general goal is to remove INT-dependency from classes which rely on skill usage.

    DM Option: Assign a different attribute as the basis for learning a skill than the one that gets added when rolling the skill. e.g. Con for Swimming or Dex for certain Perform skills.

    DM Option: Make skill points gained above the int-based ones only allowed to buy class skills, or even buy class skills at the cross-class rate.
    Last edited by Random832; 2009-09-08 at 03:13 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Attribute skill points

    I don't actually understand your idea.

    I guess my barbarian's int score is rubbing off on me.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    May 2009

    Default Re: Attribute skill points

    Which part in particular isn't making sense?

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Attribute skill points

    Quote Originally Posted by Random832 View Post
    Which part in particular isn't making sense?
    Well, you lost me at "Add your class skill count to any bonus in which you have at least one class skill, and reorder. "

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Godskook's Avatar

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    Oct 2008

    Default Re: Attribute skill points

    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    I don't actually understand your idea.
    I don't understand it either, although I'm pretty sure a little clean up or explanation will fix that. Also, I'm pretty sure there's a couple of typos in the math, further messing with things.
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  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    May 2009

    Default Re: Attribute skill points

    I've tried to add clearer wording and alternate ways of looking at it. Also I simplified by removing the restriction in using your class-based skill points on attributes in which you have no class skills, since it doesn't really make sense and is only marginally applicable (as the DM am I really going to stop you from spending skill points on concentration?)

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Attribute skill points

    So, you propose making your highest stat determine your skill points.

    And you propose limiting the number of skills related to each ability score to a number equal to or less than that ability score's modifier + your class' skill points per level.

    Yes?

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    May 2009

    Default Re: Attribute skill points

    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    So, you propose making your highest stat determine your skill points.
    Well, the skill points you have only by virtue of your highest stat can only be spent on skills that use that stat.

    And you propose limiting the number of skills related to each ability score to a number equal to or less than that ability score's modifier + your class' skill points per level.

    Yes?
    Basically.

    Think of it this way. The "#"s are arranged vertically by the number of skill points you would get based on that stat.
    Code:
      SDCWHI (H - cHarisma)
    7 #      ] This point can only be spent on STR skills
    6 ###    ] This point can be spent on S/D/C skills
    5 ####   ] This point can be spent on S/D/C/W skill
    4 #####  ] These points can be spent on any non-INT skill
    3 #####
    2 ###### ] These points can be spent on any skill
    1 ######
      766542
    Last edited by Random832; 2009-09-08 at 03:27 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Attribute skill points

    To be honest, I'm against it. It makes int almost worthless and makes skillmonkeys weaker.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    May 2009

    Default Re: Attribute skill points

    How about only applying it to stats above int, and having the "extra" points only be worth half [like cross-class, and have to spend four to advance a cross-class skill]. That way high int is still useful since it lets you do _any_ skill well and buy class skills at 1:1.

    This would keep an advantage to high int, but still give some points to make it at least possible to play low-int characters. And really, does it make sense for jumping (Remember, jump isn't about fancy stuff - that's tumble - it's just about how far/high you can jump) to be based on how smart you are?
    Last edited by Random832; 2009-09-08 at 03:42 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Attribute skill points

    I would suggest just giving every class more skill points.

    Don't forget that the skills represent actual training jump/swim/etc, you already add your ability mods.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Sep 2007

    Default Re: Attribute skill points

    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    To be honest, I'm against it. It makes int almost worthless and makes skillmonkeys weaker.
    Personally, i don't see anything against making int less valuable. As it is it governs a heap of skills (e.g. all knowledge skills) and any class that depends on it tends to be on the higher end of the power spectrum (warblade, wizard, beguiler).

    It seems weird at first, but it actually makes sense when you get your head around it- high strength isn't giving you extra knowledge skills, it's giving you an extra opportunity

    The only obvious problem i see (besides the skillmonkey issue) is that it helps the already overpowered SAD classes at the expense of the sucky MAD ones

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DracoDei's Avatar

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    Default Re: Attribute skill points

    I created a feat which also attempts to solve some of these problems a while back. Let me put it here for cross-referencing purposes.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...57#post4505657
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  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Godskook's Avatar

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    Default Re: Attribute skill points

    Hmm, I like it. There's issues with it, but as a general idea, it is a good mechanic for making sure fighters still get skill points, despite having an int penalty(lets face it, if D&D actually described reality here, 'dumb jock' would be an oxymoron).

    Maybe dividing the class bonus for skill points if you use this system. Essentially:

    Skill points = Max(X+int, or X/2+Y)

    Where X is the skill bonus from your class(for rogues, 8, wizards, 2), and Y is your highest modifier. If you take the latter option for skill points, you must spend them according to the algorithm specified in the first post.

    Skillmonkeys would still be powerful, since they're walking around with 10+ skill points per level, and dumping int just wouldn't let you get that much. They'd also have the flexibility to invest points where-ever they needed to, without the difficult attribute reliant restrictions others faced.

    *Note, aside from the division by 2, what I'm describing is equivalent to the first post.
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  15. - Top - End - #15
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    arkanis's Avatar

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    Default Re: Attribute skill points

    I think because of the massive number of skills in 3.5 that this works for allowing all characters their fair share of skills and for making sure they acquire skills mostly in areas where they're already adept. Though it does make Intelligence somewhat less worthwhile unless you're in a game setting that actually puts Crafts and Knowledge to use.

    However, the complexity of these calculations are somewhat upsetting.

    Why not do something like the following:

    • At each level the character selects one ability score.
    • They gain an amount of skill points equal to their normal class value + this ability's modifier.
    • They must spend at least half these skill points on skills which use the selected ability score while the rest can be spent normally.
    • Class skills apply normally.
    Everything is perspective. You can't excuse or ignore anything because of that.

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  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Oct 2007

    Default Re: Attribute skill points

    What if you have a high Constitution? The skills you can put those points into: Concentration.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    arkanis's Avatar

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    Default Re: Attribute skill points

    That one ability score does somewhat present a problem. Though apparently you can choose another one aside from your highest to maximize the utility of your skills rather than purely your skill points.

    Although ironically most Con-based classes don't have Concentration as a class skill and most classes that have Concentration aren't combat classes.
    Everything is perspective. You can't excuse or ignore anything because of that.

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