Battle tactics: who needs to be taken out first

[Forbiddenwar]

question for 3.5 D&D

Going to be soloing against the party group with a VOP monk/rogue with invisible fist 5 levels higher.
Group consists of 4 lvl 5 characters, unoptimized:
Barbarian, cleric, Druid, and monk.

Assuming suprise round and beating init, who should the monk/rogue take out first? Second? Third? Last?

Debating between attacking the barb or druid first, then cleric, then monk. but not sure.

On a 1V4 fight, which class is more dangerous when given enough steam? I need to optimize my sneak attack targets.

Additional info: Druid won't have much wild shape options, strictly enforcing "familiar requirment" will probably only wild shape as a wolf.

Battle field: typical natural underground, low ceilings, lots of cover from cave formations.

[Yukitsu]

Cleric, druid, barbarian, monk.

[rezplz]

Well, if they're all unoptimized, then I kind of want to reccomend going for the cleric first. Chances are, if he isn't optimized he's going to be a heal-bot. Take out the cleric and they can't replenish their HPs.

Next, go for the druid. Druid's gonna have a couple bad spells to put you down, and being a secondary healer can get the cleric back up. You don't want that happening because then you have to start all over.

After that, take out the barbarian. It's gonna be dishing out lots of damage, most likely. A monk/rogue doesn't have much HPs.

Finally, go for the other monk. Before you do, if possible have them stare each other down. And then it is a REQUIREMENT that you play the mortal kombat theme song. If your guy loses to the party monk after taking out everybody else, then it'll be epic and be remembered for some time. :)!

Edit: Aaaaaaugh ninja'd. But the mortal kombat is still a requirement.

[Wings of Peace]

I would say it depends on their skill level and your skill level. If they play casters Batman style like many char opers then kill the druid and then the cleric first. Druid has some aoe spells that can turn the environment against you greatly given the time. The cleric has some minor things but I wouldn't be as worried.
If they're mostly new to casters I would hit the barbarian first. If he doesn't die the casters both can heal so they will probably feel that's what they should do when really it's just preventing them from actually neutralizing you.

[Croverus]

Take the cleric first so they lose any chances of healing. Druid and barbarian won't be too tough to hand becuase if Barbarian rages his AC drops meaning you hit him easier and can kill him fast. If the druid does wildshape like you said he is limited in options. Unless he has Wild Casting (He shouldn't at only level 5) then he's better of staying in his soft, fleshy humanoid form. Watch his spells, he will probably try to heal when the cleric goes down. The monk can be saved for last.

So Order (if barb rages):
1 Cleric
2 Barbarian
3 Druid
4 Monk

Order is barbarian is smart and doesn't rage:
1 Cleric
2 Druid
3 Barbarian
4 Monk

[Mushroom Ninja]

Cleric, druid, barbarian, monk.

I agree. Since the party is unoptomized, they'll probably rely on the cleric as a healbot. Destroy their healbot and strike fear into their hearts!

[JackQ]

Cleric, Druid, Barb and then monk (probably multiple ninjas)

I would emphasize the goal should be to take out or shut down opponents quickly as your main problem will be one action vs. their 4 actions + animal companion per round.
Your post is a but unclear. Are you 10th level vs. their 5th level.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Is there any way for your VOP monk/rogue to sneak attack after surprise and winning init?

[Mando Knight]

Question: How's their sight? If you've got darkvision and a means to dispel their magical lights but they don't, they'll have to fumble around a bit before they can fight you on even terms. Then you can Stealth+Sneak Attack any of the targets, especially the Cleric (who's probably carrying the light spells), into oblivion.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

You should first take out the party member of the opposite sex who has the highest Charisma.

[Fax Celestis]

Is there any way for your VOP monk/rogue to sneak attack after surprise and winning init?

Invisible Fist ACF lets him turn invisible.

[Eldariel]

Rough estimation:

Druid: Probably the most effective out of the bunch. Medium HP, impressive spells (what about his animal companion?), Wildshape. I'd take him out first, since he's likely to be taking the most effective actions against you while still being killable.

Cleric: This is a big one. If the Cleric is playing a Healbot, you obviously let him keep healing; his healing does next to nothing compared to your damage so you can just kill the contributing party members while he's being useless. Remember to always kill so they can't be healed from negative. However, if he knows what he's doing, he should definitely be your first target as he'll easily be the largest single source of various save-or-be-****ed effects, huge party boosts and even decent melee damage.

Barbarian: Probably the biggest singular source of damage, but also the highest HP. Due to the immense amount of damage it likely takes to kill him, I'd probably save the Barbarian for after the casters are down.

Monk: Unlike to actually do anything so I'd ignore him. The worst things he can try are trip/grapple/stun so as long as you out-Str him or have defenses vs. combat maneuvers and a decent Fort (or just good Touch AC), you'll be fine.

[Telonius]

First: pickpocket the Cleric's Holy Symbol. (You're a Rogue, right?)
Second: sunder the Barbarian's sword.
Third: kill the druid's dog.
Fourth: kill the druid.
Fifth: dis-arm the Monk. (And I mean that literally).

[Forbiddenwar]

First: pickpocket the Cleric's Holy Symbol. (You're a Rogue, right?)

Good idea, but cleric has 10+ holy symbols.
Out of all of the characters, the barbarian is the most optimized, power gamer, the rest are newbies.

Going for a nonlethal TPK so monk/rogue can question them. House ruled that the character can SA nonlethal. The M/R has been following them for a while and so can choose exactly where and when to do this encounter (probably right after another hard fight) when abilities have been expended, or at night when no one is sleeping in armor.

The idea is that I can probably take out 1 character before any action. Which one?

[Leewei]

Speak to the party from the shadows. Tell them you will destroy them all, but you will first give them a chance to prepare. Wait while they buff up. Then give them a further 10 minutes per (their) level afterwards. Then attack.

If the Barbarian rages, use invisibility and Hide for a minute or so.

Make sure the DM understands what animal tricks are for in the description of Animal Companion. If the druid can't point to you and order his companion to attack, he'll need to use the Seek trick. It may take several rounds for puppy to get the point and start the hunt.

In case this happens, leave articles of your clothing scattered around the area to confuse the use of Scent.

The fight will play out along the following lines:

-PCs get excited and throw every short duration buff imaginable.
-PCs start to panic as buffs start to expire.
-The druid takes 20 on a Handle Animal skill check to "push" his Animal Companion to Seek or Track you.
-Buffs expire and you start to pick off the four PCs in a fashion similar to Predator.

Remember to use your stealth and mobility to the fullest extent possible. Eliminate any PC capable of spotting and reaching you first. The cleric may be the primary healer, but tricking him into throwing all spells as buffs will largely deplete his healing ability. If he has a wand, destroy it.

[Sharkman1231]

First: pickpocket the Cleric's Holy Symbol. (You're a Rogue, right?)
Second: sunder the Barbarian's sword.
Third: kill the druid's dog.
Fourth: kill the druid.
Fifth: dis-arm the Monk. (And I mean that literally).

I second that idea, also, don't druids have components for spells too? (berries and such?)

[Eldariel]

-The druid takes 20 on a Handle Animal skill check to "push" his Animal Companion to Seek or Track you.

Don't you think he'd have Track prepared? Either way, Invisibility Purge, Blindsight, Listening Lorecall, Faerie Fire (if the Druid catches a glimpse of you, that can GG the whole "stealth" plan) and the like present problems with the stealth plan unless the Monk/Rogue has Darkstalker. Does the party prepare such tools?

[Guancyto]

I'll have to second the hit-and-run. If the Barbarian is optimized, he can take most of what you throw at him and dish out an exceptional beating. You may be 5 levels higher than them, but you also have d6/d8 HP and monk levels, so make it as difficult as you possibly can for them to pin you down.

Because if you let them surround you, the encounter is over. All four of them have strong fort saves, better HD than you (though not by much) and after the first couple of rounds you'll have trouble making sneak attacks.

[Lamech]

Please note the druid can do this little thing called FLY. If you WTF PWN a party member the druid could escape. Then a level later drop spells from the sky and kill the VoP monk. Or just get a dire bat compain and drop spells from the sky a (day?) later.

Edit: Can the monk even catch the druid in wolf form? That druid is fully capable of flying if he has time to get a new animal and your monk... not so much.

[Forbiddenwar]

{Scrubbed}

[Forbiddenwar]

I'll have to second the hit-and-run. If the Barbarian is optimized, he can take most of what you throw at him and dish out an exceptional beating. You may be 5 levels higher than them, but you also have d6/d8 HP and monk levels, so make it as difficult as you possibly can for them to pin you down.

Because if you let them surround you, the encounter is over. All four of them have strong fort saves, better HD than you (though not by much) and after the first couple of rounds you'll have trouble making sneak attacks.

Hard to surround someone with a +25 to tumble and invisibility.

[vrellum]

Probably go for the cleric or druid first. Druid might be the best bet. He probably has a worse flat-footed AC. You (probably) won't be able to sneak attack the barbarian, so no need to waste your surprise round.

[Rixx]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...tTheMedicFirst

[Dienekes]

As you're only trying for knock outs and not kills, go for the Cleric.

[Animefunkmaster]

Hard to surround someone with a +25 to tumble and invisibility.

I agree that heavy uses of invisibility will be necessary. However, tumble is not the end all be all since your spending your action to move out of a flank as opposed to flurry, stunning fist and sneak attack. I wouldn't be too worried being surrounded, I would be worried if in a single round each party member did something constructive (like summon, some battle field control, try to grapple, or charge with power attack).

I would go with a long haul type of tactic, attack the party where there is little around and then go invisible away or perhaps get someone else to start with the killing, wearing down the parties spells and rage. Then attack when you Know you have the advantage, night. You should have reasonable stealth to kill off each member without sounding an alarm or before the barbarian has a chance to do anything with his weapon.

I would go in the order of Druid>Barbarian>Cleric>Monk>Animal Companion

[Guancyto]

Hard to surround someone with a +25 to tumble and invisibility.

Not really. With that modifier you can count on tumbling at full speed -or- through their square -or- through heavily obstructed areas, but not all three. If the Barbarian decides to rush you against a wall and one of the divine casters has See Invisibility or a bag of flour handy, they will take you apart very quickly.

For this reason, I would actually advise wearing down the Barbarian first. He's liable to have the lowest AC and highest movement, and every healing spell the Cleric uses on him is one save-or-lose that he can't target you with. He will have several, even at level five. Getting him to expend his rage and then hiding is just a bonus.

Also, what's your Escape Artist modifier?

[Forbiddenwar]

Also, what's your Escape Artist modifier?

15. I like the idea of hitting them when asleep, after a long combat with another big nasty. The druid takes most watches being an elf. with her dismal spots, I can probably take out the Animal Companion, remove weapons and armor from the barbarian and cleric, then take out the druid. Barbarian, cleric then monk. What do you think? Also, how can you tell if someone is naturally asleep or unconscious from an attack, without trying to shake them awake?

[Eldariel]

15. I like the idea of hitting them when asleep, after a long combat with another big nasty. The druid takes most watches being an elf. with her dismal spots, I can probably take out the Animal Companion, remove weapons and armor from the barbarian and cleric, then take out the druid. Barbarian, cleric then monk. What do you think? Also, how can you tell if someone is naturally asleep or unconscious from an attack, without trying to shake them awake?

...wait, Druid has a dismal Spot? How the F*** does a class with Wisdom as the only relevant stat, Spot in class and as a race with racial bonuses to the skill manage bad Spot?

[Keewatin]

15. I like the idea of hitting them when asleep, after a long combat with another big nasty. The druid takes most watches being an elf. with her dismal spots, I can probably take out the Animal Companion, remove weapons and armor from the barbarian and cleric, then take out the druid. Barbarian, cleric then monk. What do you think? Also, how can you tell if someone is naturally asleep or unconscious from an attack, without trying to shake them awake?

Well most sleeping things if you hit them will wake up so if it does not react you probably knocked it out.

Also even without perception modifiers the animal comanion should have scent and the ability to notice you within 30 feet and pinpoint you within 5 feet. And you wont be able to sneak attack the barbarian unless he is immobilized, (yes he can comically avoid sneak attack damage while asleep )


EDIT: ^ even a character optimized for spotting has less potential modifiers then a character that is invisable and skilled at hiding.

[Cheesegear]

...wait, Druid has a dismal Spot? How the F*** does a class with Wisdom as the only relevant stat, Spot in class and as a race with racial bonuses to the skill manage bad Spot?

They're even more un-optimised than we thought?