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    Default Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    DRAGON INCARNATE



    Dragons are majestic creatures of magic and the elements. Humans are the earthliest of the mortal races. Their offspring-for there are always adventurous dragons and depraved wizards about-are often seen as abominations by both races, having neither the innate magic of their dragon parent nor the adaptability and ingenuity of their human parent, let alone purity of form as far as either race is concerned.
    Sometimes though, when a powerful dragon mates with a magically strong mortal, the offspring looks exactly like the parent giving birth. If no extraordinary circumstances interfere, the child will go on to become the same species as her mother, seemingly holding no trace of the other bloodline. These children though are born with a spark. Should extraordinary events come to pass, such a spark will manifest and grow, eventually turning the child into a dragon incarnate.

    Dragon Incarnates are vessels of the essence of both dragon- and humankind, having a natural form as both species. Instead of drawing gifts from their dragon parent-as most dragonkin do-they can manifest, through training and strong will, the abilities of many types of dragon. They are often visionaries or ambassadors between races, their gifts enabling them to tread in many different environments. Others may become tyrants and dictators, using their might to subjugate the lesser races...

    skills: 2/level (spot, listen, spellcraft, knowledge, intimidate, bluff, sense motive)
    hit die: d12
    proficiencies: no armor/shield, only simple weapons
    special: must be humanoid or monstrous humanoid. changing to another creature type except for dragon through the classe's abilities prevents further advancement in the class.

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |Dragon Breath, Claws

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Dragon Aspect, Dragon Armor

    3rd|
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Dragon Shape (medium)

    4th|
    +2
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |Draconic Might

    5th|
    +2
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    | Scinctillating Scales

    6th|
    +3
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |Dragon Breath

    7th|
    +3
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |Dragon Shape (large)

    8th|
    +4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |Draconic Sight

    9th|
    +4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |Spell Resistance

    10th|
    +5
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |

    11th|
    +5
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |Dragon Shape (Huge)

    12th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |Blindsense

    13th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |
    +8
    |Dragon Breath

    14th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |Dragon Shape (Gargantuan)

    15th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |
    +9
    |Dragon Breath

    16th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |

    17th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |
    +10
    |Damage Reduction

    18th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |Dragon Breath

    19th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |
    +11
    |

    20th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +12
    |
    +12
    |
    +12
    |Dragon Avatar[/table]

    Claws (Ex)
    Dragon Incarnates are untrained in weaponry and armor but they have the natural ferocity of their dragon parents. They can shape their hands into claws, dealing 1d6+strength damage with each of the two claw attacks. Their BAB when using these claws is equal to their character level and they get iterative attacks with them normally when using the full attack action.

    Breath Weapon (Su)
    At 1st level, a Dragon Incarnate has an energy weapon similar to that of a dragon, usable every 1d4 rounds. The weapon is a 60 ft line or a 30 ft cone and deals 1d6 damage per class level, reflex save for half. The save is constitution-based (10 + 1/2 class levels + con modifier). The dragon incarnate chooses the energy type when first gaining the weapon and cannot change it afterwards-she also gains the creature subtype associated with the weapon's damage type.
    As she advances in the class, the Incarnate adds more breath weapons to her repertoire. She can choose additional energy weapons or special non-energy weapons of dragons. E.g. at 6th level she could choose to add the paralysing breath of a silver dragon or the light breath of the radiant dragon. The base DC and range of those weapons is the same as her initial weapon-but the area increases by 20ft for lines and 10 ft for cones for every additional breath weapon beyond the first. She can use a second breath weapon while the first one is recovering but not a third if the first two are recovering.
    Finally, she gains the special quality or subtype associated with the breath weapon she has chosen, if any. E.g. if she chooses radiant breath, she gains a radiant dragon's immunity to blindness and light effects.

    Dragon Aspect (Ex)
    At 2nd level and beyond, the Dragon Incarnate's creature type changes from humanoid or monstrous humanoid to dragon. She gains all the qualities associated with dragons.

    Dragon Armor (Ex)
    At 2nd level and beyond, the Dragon Incarnate gains a bonus to her AC equal to her constitution modifier. This bonus she retains at all times but it doesn't work against attacks that ignore natural armor and it doesn't stack with natural armor or armor bonuses. At 5th level she gains the Scinctillating Scales ability; her Dragon Armor and natural armor do work against attacks that would normally ignore them such as touch attacks.

    Dragon Shape (Ex)
    At 3rd level, the incarnate learns to unlock the elemental potential within and assume the shape of a medium dragon a number of times per day equal to her charisma modifier. She may freely end the transformation within 3+ charisma modifier rounds of beginning it but after that time has passed she must spend an additional use of the ability to return to human form. In that form, she gains a strength and constitution bonus equal to her class level, her natural armor becomes equal to her class level and she can do bite and claw attacks with the same damage and reach as a dragon of her size. Despite having wings, she cannot yet fly.
    At 7th level, she can assume the form of a large dragon. She gains the above bonuses to constitution/strength but gains the large size penalties/bonuses to attacks, checks, saves, AC and skills. Her wings can now sustain her at average maneurability at twice her base speed. Her natural attack damage and reach is as per a dragon of her size.
    At 11th level, she can become a huge dragon. The size penalties/bonuses, reach and damage increase accordingly. She can fly at 3x ground speed at poor maneurability. She can now do the tail slap attack.
    At 14th level she can become a gargantuan dragon with the corresponding increase to bonuses, penalties, reach and damage due to size. She can do crush attacks and wing slap attacks. She can fly at 4x land speed, at clumsy maneurability and she has the Frightful Presence ability as a dragon of her HD.
    The Dragon Incarnate can only assume the shapes of dragons whose breath weapon she posesses. When she changes shape she is indistinguishable from a dragon of that type and that form is considered her natural form-not even magic can show otherwise.

    Draconic Might (Ex)
    At 5th level, some of the essence used in assuming dragon form leaks into the Incarnate's human shape. As long as she is in her nondragon natural form, she gains half the bonus to strength and constitution of her dragon natural form.

    Draconic Sight (Ex)
    The dragon incarnate's senses improve; she can see two times farther in daylight and four times further in low-light than a human, spot penalties being reduced accordingly. She also gains a +8 racial bonus to spot checks.

    Spell Resistance (Ex)
    The dragon incarnate gains a SR score equal to her class level+11 or her HD+9, whichever is higher.

    Blindsense (Ex)
    The dragon incarnate's senses improve further; she gains blindsense as a dragon.

    Damage Reduction (Su)
    At this level, the dragon incarnate gains the resilience of dragons; she now has damage reduction penetrated by magic attacks equal to her class level.

    Dragon Avatar (Ex)
    At the pinnacle of her power, the dragon incarnate becomes an avatar of draconic essence. She automatically succeeds at knowledge checks regarding dragons in general (but not the actions of individual dragons). She may assume the form of colossal dragons and she may assume the form and special abilities of any dragonic creature as per the Shapechange spell. However, she does not lose her special Dragon Incarnate abilities in those forms and retains her ability scores if they are already higher.
    Last edited by Belial_the_Leveler; 2009-09-10 at 12:18 PM.


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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    PEACH please.



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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    You're really working against yourself there. A lot of guys aren't going to make it to the text. I mean, eye-candy + epic = impossible to ignore:)

    Breath weapon needs a table, since its a 'pick A get B' thing, and that'll get confusing without details.
    Last edited by Godskook; 2009-09-12 at 06:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    Incidentally, I think the traditional way dragons are listed in the Monster Manual are by age, not by size. The fact that a character can become a "Huge" dragon at level 11 means, for most colors, anything below Ancient.

    Somewhere in this class, you need to have a table that specifies which dragon type your character is going to be. You can lay it out by alignment, but you don't have to force Good-aligned characters to be Metallic if you don't want to. And list the breath weapon for each dragon, too. The less a player has to look up when playing this class, the better.

    I could see this potentially being a very strong class addition, but it's definitely in need of some tweaking.
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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    Indead, 'size' is quite the variance because dragons can spend 3 or more age categories in a single size, For huge, you're working with a dragon with between 20 and 32 HD, and whatever else might come along with that in this class.
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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    I believe that the Dragon Shape class feature does not grant the stat bonuses of the new form, only the size bonuses/penalties (i.e., the -x to AC for growing a size). Therefore, it should matter little how many hit die the base creature is looking at, as all your abilities will still be based off your starting attributes.

    If the intent is to gain the stats of the new form and gain the class bonuses to str/con/nat armor, then this class is greatly overpowered (wouldn't stop me from playing one though ).

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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Voice of Reason View Post
    I believe that the Dragon Shape class feature does not grant the stat bonuses of the new form, only the size bonuses/penalties (i.e., the -x to AC for growing a size). Therefore, it should matter little how many hit die the base creature is looking at, as all your abilities will still be based off your starting attributes.

    If the intent is to gain the stats of the new form and gain the class bonuses to str/con/nat armor, then this class is greatly overpowered (wouldn't stop me from playing one though ).
    That's true, however it could grant you the physical stats and not the mental stats, not as bonuses but as a replacement for your physical stats, that would make seance to me.
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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    Firstly, I want to congratulate you on your avatar; that's one of the most incredible/unique avatars I've seen around here.

    Secondly, the reason that particular interpretation worries me is because of the early class levels. By level 7, when the full-classed wizard can finally cast his first polymorph spell, you can take a large dragon form with +7 str, con, and nat armor to boot, and make it your natural form for all intents and purposes (like feats).

    Choosing a dragon race at random (copper, one I don't play too often), you can see that this form would allow you to polymorph into an "adult" copper dragon. This gives you, under your interpretation, 30 str, 10 dex, 26 con, and +26 natural armor (which, by the way, also works against touch attacks) permanently at level 7. This is without the benefit of magic items, feats, or buffs.

    Frankly, you put the optimized barbarian to shame (+4 str and con while raging, 18 base str & con, pretend we have a race of +2 each for 20. +4 each via magic items, +1 to str for advancement, and you're still looking at only 29 str and 28 con, without the bonus to natural armor and with a -2 penalty to AC).

    Likewise, without any buffs whatsoever, you would have an AC of 35 (10 + 26 natural armor - 1 size). I challenge the optimized party tank to hit this AC in that time (one of my best was AC 37 for a level 7 fighter). Of course, the Dragon Incarnate can always add some armor or other defensive items if she feels inadequate.

    So, although it would make the class immensly more appealing, I'd call it clearly overpowered. Up at the higher levels, when the spellcaster "cheese" comes into play, the lines begin to blur, but until then, the Dragon Incarnate is almost strictly better.

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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    Dragon Form only gives you the shape (i.e. appearance) of a dragon. The actual bonuses are those listed in the ability itself. Size is thus mentioned because it regulates natural attack damage, size bonuses/penalties and, for most dragons, what types of attacks they can use.

    Dragon Breath doesn't need a table. If you look up a dragon for his breath weapon, you will also know the associated immunity because it's written in the same page. Besides, a table that would include all dragons would be bigger than the rest of the class writeup.


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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    Dragon Breath doesn't need a table. If you look up a dragon for his breath weapon, you will also know the associated immunity because it's written in the same page. Besides, a table that would include all dragons would be bigger than the rest of the class writeup.
    So does a Dragon Incarnate who chooses a Brass Dragon's sleep breath weapon gain fire immunity?
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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    It seems a bit overpowered to me in that its only three weaknesses aren't really weaknesses and there is alot going in favor of this class.

    The lack of skills isn't a problem for this class any more than a lack of spells is a problem for the rogue. Skill monkey isn't the role that this guy plays. Furthermore, unlike the fighter, what few skills this guy does have are useful outside of combat (party face, knowledge repository, scout).
    Lack of weapon and armor proficiencies is a very small problem to deal with. When you become colossal, even your weakest attacks will likely be doing more damage the the strongest weapon that you could weild in your normal form. Similarly, +20 natural armor equals a +5 heavy shield and +5 full plate. The only problem is that your skin and claws can't be permanently enchanted.
    Lack of BAB is made up for by a +20 Strength bonus (which also adds to damage rolls) while the fewer number of attacks is compensated for by the large number of natural weapons you possess. There is a size penalty to attack rolls but this is evened out by your huge reach.

    One thing that I'd like to point out is that the breath weapon is kind of overpowered given that no other class gets a more-or-less at will 20d6 blast and that, unlike a dragon, you can use two breath weapons in a row.
    Also, the +20 Con in dragon form increases the Save DC of the breath weapon by +10 (it can currently reach DC 39 with ease) which is dangerous.

    This class is basically like being a barbarian except that you can rage perpetually, the benefits of raging are better, raging actually increases your AC, you get a very powerful ranged attack, you can fly (which multiplies your speed), and you are generally better than the barbarian in every way.
    The fact that this basically leaves a class useless by comparison (unless it goes with power attack/frenzied berserker) isn't a good sign.
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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    Under the dragon claws ability, you state that the dragon incarnate can shape their hands into claws for 1d6+str damage, and that they can attack as though with a BAB equal to class level for those attacks. However, if a Dragon Incarnate assumes her dragon form, do the claws increase in damage appropriate the normal damage of a dragon of her size? Can she use these claws in place of her own claws if no (for the full BAB bonus)?

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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    ...
    When I last posted, I failed to notice that you get full BAB with your claws. Now that I have, allow me to give the full appraisal.

    This is broken.

    It is incredibly hard to justify giving all good saving throws, full BAB, and a d12 HD all being present in one class. You went beyond this and granted colossal size, +20 natural armor, +20 Con, +20 Str, and a slew of secondary attacks. As if that weren't enough, you tacked on flying, improved sight, a deadly breathweapon, and frightful pressence.

    This is simply overpowered.
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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    I actually like this class a good deal. Its a class that is not only worth taking all 20 levels of (which is a rarity), but it also manages to be strong without spellcasting or maneuvers (or psionics/incarnum/invocations/binding/etc).

    Obviously, it still can't clone itself, or contingent teleport itself, or create its own demiplanes, or bind a bunch of outsiders, or dominate countless high level stooges to serve you, but I think it'd be reasonably fun to play, and with the right choices of status-breathes, maybe keep up with some melee Clerics and similar in combat (Which already do it better than fighters and barbarians and stuff anyway, so don't worry about that). I can't say that for certain, without making a build for it, but its past 1 am, so I'm not gonna...

    The one thing I would change are skills. At least 4 + intelligence modifier, and some more class skills. Appraise definitely. Maybe swim (lots of dragons have swim speeds)? Balance (White Dragons I know, for one, are into balancing on ice)? Survival and Search, and maybe Diplomacy too, I think would fit.

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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    This needs more supplements. Like a Sorcerer/Dragon Incarnate PrC, but doesn't suck for being a hybrid class.

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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    As far as fighters go, Barbarian and Warblade are pretty much at the head of the pack. This thing is better than the barbarian in every single way and pays nothing for it.

    If you create something that would push a preexisting class out of use, you know that you've come across a badly executed idea.

    I'm relatively sure that this thing has more firepower than an unoptimized warblade (and more potential for damage than an optomized barbarian) but isn't quite as versatile. I'm not saying that it's strictly better than the warblade (iron heart surge) but that it has full BAB, somewhere around 6 natural attacks, a reach of 20 feet, and +20 Str. To take care of enemies trying to keep away, you get a 20d6 breath weapon and flying.

    To be fair, this thing would be fun to play (in the same way it would be fun to bring a tank into prehistoric times and watch cavemen run for their lives). Also, it would be a class people play through 20 levels.

    However, the fact remains that it is mechanically superior in all aspects to at least one other class that is considered very darn good already. Although WotC occasionally printed a sub-par class (samurai, soulknife, truenamer, hexblade), they have never (to my knowledge) made a class that is clearly better than another one that attempts to do the same thing.

    This time, however, I will be constructive and suggest how to remove the broken-ness.
    Give it one bad saving throw
    Give it medium BAB
    Take away the full bab that it gets with its claw attacks
    Reduce breath damage to 1d4/level or 1d6/2 levels. Alternatively, simply set the reset to 1d4+1 rounds and don't allow a second breath weapon to be used during that time.
    Change the dragonshape ability so that you can use it a number of times per day equal to your class level (or perhaps once per encounter) but that you only remain transformed for a number of rounds equal to your Con modifier. The most broken part of this class is that it can remain in dragonshape indefinitely and thus never be forced to surrender the remarkable powers that the ability grants them.
    remove the natural armor clause from dragonshape. It becomes a bit much (remember that the barbarian actually loses AC for their abilities) and the Con bonus will increase their natural armor anyways.
    Halve the Str/Con bonuses granted by dragonshape. You are still outdoing the bonuses that a 20th level barbarian gets but you aren't going completely crazy with things. Also, the reduced Con bonus means that the breath weapon save DC isn't so astronomical.
    Take away the capstone ability and instead simply let them become a colossal dragon. As a bonus, let them cast a single 6th level or lower sorcerer/wizard spell with a casting time of 1 standard action or less with each use of dragonshape. That kind of simulates the spellcasting of dragons without the broken implications of actually shapeshifting into specific dragons (this class seems more about becoming generically draconic than about imitating specific dragons anyways)
    As suggested above, grant 2 more skill points per level and add appraise to the skill list, possibly with climb, search, and swim.
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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    1) Dragons can't wear all the same items as normal characters do. Remember, armor and clothing do not resize unless a spell says they do and no item changes shape to fit non-humanoid bodies. So essentially, because the abilities are based on change shape the dragon incarnate doesn't benefit from: armor, vests, mantles, cloaks, belts, gloves, boots. She also can't use weapons, shields and hand-held items in dragonform.
    Actual dragons can wear most of the above but they have to be custom-made for dragons (e.g. dragon barding armor) and someone changing from dragon to human cannot benefit in their other shape or when changing sizes. That's the huge minus of dragon shape.


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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    Ever hear of something called wilding clasps?

    I agree fully with Realms of Chaos.

    Edit:

    In my short stay in the forums so far I have noticed a few people that tend to know how to keep things balanced and a few people that tend to create overpowered classes for fun and profit. That said, was this class meant to be played in a high powered game where monsters are cooler and PC's are even more awesome than they are?
    Last edited by Averagedog; 2009-09-18 at 08:27 AM.
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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    Wilding clasps only work for the wildshape ability, not dragon shape. (and is there a 3.5 version of them btw?)

    That said, when making the class I had to deal with two problems:

    1) All this class does is being a monster. A druid, wizard or other spellcaster should not be able to become a better monster (and still have spells)
    2) This class should be balanced vs the majority of classes in the game.


    The first problem is dealt with on making the dragonform abilities on par with Wildshape and adding secondary abilities that further improve them. This makes the class physically powerful but it still doesn't have spells as druids and polymorphed wizards do.

    The second problem is harder to deal with. In the end, I decided to balance it with the stronger majority rather than the weaker minority.

    The class is balanced against: wizard, sorceror, cleric, druid, ToB classes with light optimisation and heavily optimised meleers.
    It is NOT optimised against pure monk, fighter, paladin, rogue or barbarian.
    It cannot use effectively the majority of items PCs are going to find (so treasure is effectively halved if they buy and sell to get appropriate items)
    It cannot effectively optimise through multiclass-it just loses on its own progression.


    For those of you saying it overshadows the barbarian;
    Sure it does. But only the pure barbarian. A frenzied Berzerker or Bear Warrior has a lot better melee and equal strength when raging and can rage enough times to effectively rage at every combat.


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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    Actually, I recall reading that most magic items do indeed resize to fit the wearer. They are capable of using magic items, just not vests, armor, and weaponry.
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  21. - Top - End - #21
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    I'd start by getting rid of the "claws use full BAB", it frankly doesn't work with the rest of the system. BAB is BAB. Since you've already got 2 claw attacks you don't need higher BAB, and at higher levels you have more attacks to make up for it. Then I'd go with making the breath weapon work normally: true dragons can't alternate breaths, they have to wait 1d4 rounds before using either after breathing one. They should only get one energy, and one special effect at some higher level, like a normal dragon. If you want the breath weapon available outside of dragon form you should probably drop it to 2/3 or 1/2 progression as well. Dragon armor is interesting, I don't know if it's too much or not.

    Dragon Shape, the meat of the class. I think the size and related natural weapon progressions are just fine for this, as are the ability and natural armor bonuses if you don't count Dragon Armor. The main problem is acting like you'd ever want to change back into normal form. Seriously, come on, the only thing stopping it from being broken is that change shape abilities subsume your equipment, which doesn't matter if it lasts all day so you can strip down first and re-equip. You can't even try to argue about not being able to talk like you would with wild shape. Drop it's uses to those of a normal rage (1 +1/4 levels and +2 for a feat), change back into human form when it's over, and nullify Dragon Armor while it's in effect.

    Damage reduction/magic is nearly useless at 10th level, let alone 17, so bring it in closer. Finally, just for late level abilities, toss on some SLAs tied to dragon type, probably ripped straight from the dragon entry.

    I like the class, it's a solid idea and reminds me of fire emblem. I tend not to like the PrCs that literally just turn you into the dragon, and prefer the idea of a guy that's normally human, but busts out the dragon form when it's time to kick ass. All you need is some fine tuning and cleaning up. I think you were going for the idea that they get all kinds of draconic abilites, but when you're giving this magnitude of power it needs to be narrowed, so like it or not, you're going to have to narrow it down into abilities based on each dragon (the Dragonfire Adept gets a buffet, but it also deals half as much damage and doesn't get shapechanging) You can stick to just the PHB dragons and let people use the template for the non-PHB versions, but you can't just say "go look something else up first", the info needs to be in the class description.

    Edit: hmm, it seems that change shape doesn't absorb equipment into the new form. Regardless, I think that's what it should do, though if you left it alone you'd get incarnates running around in loose robes with little or no equpiment, which'd actually be pretty dang cool. You also need to call out that you retain all class abilities in dragon form. Or you could cut out the phrase "change shape" and similar, and instead just say "you increase in size, gain X natural attacks, Y movement modes (ooh, add some of those for dragon type), Z ability bonuses, and Q appearence." I'd also suggest changing the ability bonuses to enhancement, like the shapechange druid variant uses, to prevent horrible mean stacking. And add UMD, cause everbody wants UMD.
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  22. - Top - End - #22
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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    I'm not any judge of balance, but you need to get rid of the BAB thing. Give it Medium BAB if you want, but it shouldn't change depending on the weapon you use. I can't think of anything else that does what your class does.

    Whoever mentioned the DR is right, it's the same problem with Monk DR. Drop it to half or quarter your Class Level and stick either a material or an opposing alignment onto it.

    And if you say you balanced Dragon Shape against Wild Shape, could you make it last 1 hour/level, usable X+Cha Modifier/day? Still useful, but prevents you from staying like that forever (until level 6-ish, but that's a different issue).

    I really like the look of this class, I'm going to try and use it in the next game I apply for. So thanks.
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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    Wilding clasps only work for the wildshape ability, not dragon shape. (and is there a 3.5 version of them btw?)

    That said, when making the class I had to deal with two problems:

    1) All this class does is being a monster. A druid, wizard or other spellcaster should not be able to become a better monster (and still have spells)
    2) This class should be balanced vs the majority of classes in the game.


    The first problem is dealt with on making the dragonform abilities on par with Wildshape and adding secondary abilities that further improve them. This makes the class physically powerful but it still doesn't have spells as druids and polymorphed wizards do.

    The second problem is harder to deal with. In the end, I decided to balance it with the stronger majority rather than the weaker minority.

    The class is balanced against: wizard, sorceror, cleric, druid, ToB classes with light optimisation and heavily optimised meleers.
    It is NOT optimised against pure monk, fighter, paladin, rogue or barbarian.
    It cannot use effectively the majority of items PCs are going to find (so treasure is effectively halved if they buy and sell to get appropriate items)
    It cannot effectively optimise through multiclass-it just loses on its own progression.


    For those of you saying it overshadows the barbarian;
    Sure it does. But only the pure barbarian. A frenzied Berzerker or Bear Warrior has a lot better melee and equal strength when raging and can rage enough times to effectively rage at every combat.
    There are 3 points that I would like to make

    1. If you would look At the SRD, you will see that most magic items are either very easily adjusted for size or that they magically adjust to fit sized creatures. In fact, it specifically says that, and I quote, "Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items."
    Although dragons have different item slots (as listed in the draconomicon, I'm pretty sure), they can still use magic items. The entire arguement that they have no gear pretty much falls flat on their face, even if they can't use armor or weapons.
    The druid wildshape specifically states that magic items stop working and meld in with the new form. there is no such text in your class so...yeah.

    2. I firmly belive that a base class should be measured against the merits of other base classes, not against builds that incorporate one or more PrCs.
    Even though you have no plans to make PrCs for this, it is more than possible that somebody else might make PrCs, Feats, Specialty items, or other such resources specifically for this class.
    As this is simply homebrew to begin with, any such things created for this class would be equally valid and would have just as much of a chance of being allowed.
    To sum up this point, a class should only be equal to another optomized build when this class's build is also optimized. It seems like common sense.

    3. You say that you balance this class against the "stronger majority" but in truth, the stronger classes that you mention are in the minority of classes. Notice that only 4 of the classes you named equal this class without any optimization (5 if you add the artificer, which was oddly not on the list).
    Either you are trying to say that there are only 9 classes in existance or that the vast majority of players play one of those 5 classes. I observe neither of those claims to be true.
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  24. - Top - End - #24
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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    Claws (Ex)
    Dragon Incarnates are untrained in weaponry and armor but they have the natural ferocity of their dragon parents. They can shape their hands into claws, dealing 1d6+strength damage with each of the two claw attacks. Their BAB when using these claws is equal to their character level and they get iterative attacks with them normally when using the full attack action.
    Assuming you plan to keep the full BAB thing, might I recommend at least switching this to class level? Or perhaps class level plus 1/2 of your levels in other classes? Or, for that matter, maybe just give them a bonus equal to half or one-quarter of their class level while using their claws. As currently written, a character can take a 1-level dip in this class to get a pair of natural weapons that always have full BAB, no matter what class he later pursues. That sounds like a bad thing to me.

    Also, you might want to specify that this claw BAB doesn't count for PrC/feat prerequisites.

    Also also, what is the Dragon Incarnate's effective age category for determining the effects of some non-damaging breath weapons like a Silver's paralyzing breath?
    Last edited by Eurus; 2009-10-07 at 07:26 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #25
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    Default Re: Dragon Incarnate base class [PEACH]

    Another concern I have is that some dragons have really strange breath weapons. Do you really want PC's able to breathe a cone of Slow (Ambush Drake, MM 3) or a cone of negative levels (Shadow Dragon, Draconomicon) at level 6? Then there are Prismatic Dragons and Force Dragons from the Epic Level Handbook. Worse, you throw in their immunities too. 6th level characters immune to Force? Please make a list of allowed types and shapes instead of "anything goes", because there are strange dragons out there.

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