nWoD Mage in a DnD world

[satorian]

So I asked this at another forum, so apologies if you saw it there, too. Either way, I've been reading a lot about characters never succeeding in anything they try in nWoD because of the poor probabilities in 8-to-succeed. I'd like comments on that, from both sides. Anyway, hre is the rest of the story:

My group is starting up a campaign set in a well-developed homebrew setting that was originally built for DnD 3.0. The DM/ST is adapting Mage:Awakening rules to fit his fantasy setting, complete with druids with limited access to spheres and limited access to Werewolf gifts. PCs can be mages or these druids. We can play half-elves, dwarves, and humans.

Now, the reason the DM did this is that he really enjoyed the idea of a freeform magic system after reading Mage for the first time (and my raving about Ascension as the greatest system I'd ever played). However, being a little scared that we would run rampant over all his best-laid plans because of his lack of experience with running a freeform campaign, he decided to go with the powered down mages of awakening, even though he too found ascension to be a bit more interesting.

So, in addition to the lack-of-successes question raised above, I have another: given that atlantis crap is all gone from this world, and given that we want to have fun without trouncing his stuff, and given that he has written paradox into this fantasy world, what house rules do you think we should add to make a good low/moderate magic high fantasy setting sing? Lower difficulty for die rolls? I know I sure liked the old system. What to do to make spontaneous casting more viable (after he gets a handle on how spont casting works and what it is capable of) and rotes less necessary? He's already thinking of pumping up the damage that spells can do. (A forces 3 fireball that does bashing damage -- bloody stupid, no two ways around it; a farmer's punch does more damage than being engulfed by a bonfire from forces 2). Anything else?

[NeoVid]

So I asked this at another forum, so apologies if you saw it there, too. Either way, I've been reading a lot about characters never succeeding in anything they try in nWoD because of the poor probabilities in 8-to-succeed. I'd like comments on that, from both sides.

If you have 4 dice, (average stat+ average skill) you have a 75% chance of success. With 6 dice, there's an 88% chance of success.

Even though nothing destroys the laws of probability faster than a gaming table, you can rely on an average dice pool most of the time.

[Yuki Akuma]

If you're only rolling a single die to cast a spell, there is something very wrong. Because the absolute lowest possible is 2.

Unless you were stupid enough to take a rote spell for which you have one dot in the attribute and no dots in the skill, I guess... but why would you do that?

[satorian]

In no way did I say i would only be rolling 1 die. Or even 2. I was just struck by the stories of people saying combats lasted hours because both sides just missed and missed and missed.

Furthermore, it seems that the critical success rule might as well not even be in there with an 8 target number. At 10 dice, we're talking like a 15% chance of success.

Not only that, but i did ask other questions besides the target number. Anyone?

[Crowbar]

I'd actually say it's a pretty bad idea to include Paradox rules in a fantasy setting. I mean, since it's an effect of Quiescence, and Quiscence is caused by the ties to the Supernal collapsing and the opening of the Abyss, how does it work in a fantasy game? The ties to magic should still be quite strong.

In regards to the dice pool thing, I've actually had a problem with a character in my games of Hunter getting too many successes. The horrific creature that looked like a flying torso got shot down in a couple of turns. I've got something nasty planned for him, though...

But this is getting away from what you asked. I'd say that if you wanted to beef up the power to make things more in line with fantasy, lowering the target number for hits sounds good. It'll make that Forces 3 fireball really bugger something up.

[Kurald Galain]

Either way, I've been reading a lot about characters never succeeding in anything they try in nWoD because of the poor probabilities in 8-to-succeed.

It surprises me that you would read "a lot" about that, because by simple law of statistics it is very easy to succeed in nWOD, as you roll anything from three to eight (or more) dice and have to roll an 8 on at least one of them. oWOD is even easier as you have to roll a six instead.

I'm not sure how you want to adopt WOD-mages to a D&D game world; the rulesets for both are very different. I'm also not sure how WOD-mages would fit in a low-magic world.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

See if you can find a copy of Monte Cook's World of Darkness - it uses the d20 system, and has made a very good version of the Mage component system. I'm using it in my d20 Modern games, and it is working very well.

[satorian]

Thanks, y'all. I'll check out Monte Cook's WoD. I've been reading conflicting things about it, but I suppose I should read through it myself.

On paradox, the DM has written a rationale for the Abyss, etc. into the mythology of the world. It works as a story. We'll see how it feels when we play in a couple weeks.

If you want to see some of the critiques of nWoD on successes that I've been reading, here are a couple of threads in other forums where such things are discussed at length. Indeed, I ran into so many critiques of the nWoD system I assumed it was conventional wisdom in gaming circles that it was kinda terrible. Guess that's not the case here, but if fans are curious what the detractors are saying, they might want to check these out (a small sampling):

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=496...er=asc&start=0

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards...sNewWOD&page=1

[Kurald Galain]

Indeed, I ran into so many critiques of the nWoD system I assumed it was conventional wisdom in gaming circles that it was kinda terrible.

Neither thread actually mentions "the poor probabilities in 8-to-succeed", indeed because probability doesn't work that way. The first thread is a discussion about the merits of old vs new WOD. It is telling for the second that he doesn't like e.g. "that a handful of anyone with sticks has the combined offensive output of anything in the whole game" - which 1.is true for many RPGs, and 2.overlooks such things as disciplines.

Google up any thread about "most popular RPGs" and you'll see that World of Darkness is certainly in the top ten, and likely in the top five, of most popular RPGs worldwide.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Thanks, y'all. I'll check out Monte Cook's WoD. I've been reading conflicting things about it, but I suppose I should read through it myself.
...

CAVEAT: MCWoD isn't a very good game altogether - it doesn't translate the atmosphere of WoD to d20 very well, and lots of the concepts clash badly - but the magic system is pretty well exactly what you're asking for.

[Crowbar]

The change from old to new WoD has really divided up the fandom. You can find pure hatred to blind love and everything in between, depending on where you look.

There are a lot of people who don't like the changes in nWoD (e.g. no metaplot, streamlining of splats, etc.) and there are people who think it's a big improvement. There are also people like me who have only played nWoD and don't like the sound of a lot of things in oWoD (the idea of the metaplot being fairly high on my list).

Really, it just depends on what you want from a game. But trust me, nWoD is far from being a bad game.

[Maerok]

CAVEAT: MCWoD isn't a very good game altogether - it doesn't translate the atmosphere of WoD to d20 very well, and lots of the concepts clash badly - but the magic system is pretty well exactly what you're asking for.

At least MCWoD doesn't carry more baggage with it than an ex-girlfriend.

The d20 polymorph of WoD (let's call it that rather than adaptation to avoid waving around the red flag of 'WoD' that has all the nay-sayers charging) is pretty nice in my opinion. If you're capable of overlooking the few times that the words 'World of Darkness' show up, you might have a good time with it.

It's a neat little package that incorporates the sort of gritty feel and without the ton of excess stuff that has been built on to (n)WoD over the years. It's lite where I like my games lite and deep in other parts. Of course, it they had continued the book it probably would have started up another mountain of stuff that you need to know before you can figure what's going on. My only complaints so far are that the skill system is a little strange at first and the bestiary is far too short. I guess you could use MM stuff.

An ECL 1 character in the d20 WoD is something like ECL 4 (or 5) in DnD, so take that into account for the mage class and the points it gives out.

[Volkov]

It surprises me that you would read "a lot" about that, because by simple law of statistics it is very easy to succeed in nWOD, as you roll anything from three to eight (or more) dice and have to roll an 8 on at least one of them. oWOD is even easier as you have to roll a six instead.

I'm not sure how you want to adopt WOD-mages to a D&D game world; the rulesets for both are very different. I'm also not sure how WOD-mages would fit in a low-magic world.

D&D is not a low magic world, Lord of the rings would be a low magic world, D&D is a high-medium magic world.

[Kurald Galain]

D&D is not a low magic world, Lord of the rings would be a low magic world, D&D is a high-medium magic world.

Obviously. Yet the OP specified low to medium magic, not high.

[satorian]

It is of course fuzzy what low to medium magic means. For me, the assumptions underlying DnD 3+ (magic shops exist, most ruins will have some magical treasure, cities will likely have lots of mages, and temples will have clerics that can cast spells of various levels) is high magic. Eberron would be at the upper end of that. 1e and 2e might be moderate magic, since the assumption there is that there aren't magic item shops and mages are rarer, but stuff is otherwise much the same. Tolkein would be lower magic, and maybe Fafhrd would be too.

Anyway, by that barometer, this game would be low to middle. Only a couple in a thousand will have access to any magic, and most of those would be hedge wizards. Only clerics of some gods have actual powers. Magic items exist, but are rare, though wealthy people might still have a few (more than they would be expected in Tolkein). In a large metropolis, one might find a curio shop that carries a few low powered magic goods, but nothing like a magic shop in many 3e games. The players are de facto very exceptional for being actual mages. Nevertheless, paradox exists for big-magical-event-happened typed reasons. I don't think this is a blockade for adapting WoD to this period. There may be others, but not this.