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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default The War-Marked [3.52, Base Class] PEACH


    The Penny Dreadfuls present:
    The War-Marked, a key portion of the 3.52 fix set for D&D 3e.



    The Class Chassis
    The Marks, as currently stand


    The Theory:
    In practice, fighter is often a single-target build. Laid around one concept, locked in completely, and possibly destroyed as an effective combatant by the troubles of poor feat selection and esoteric source support. Worse, even on a good day, fighters have core problems that cause them to compare unfavorably to the majority of other classes in the game. So rather than a traditional fighter replacement, we've opted to create a class that fills its design niche in a different way.

    Our goal is to provide a comprehensive and very different option, reliant on packages of pre-picked passive buffs and abilities designed to offer something reliable, useful, and excellent for all comers. Ideally, our balance point is, unusually enough, the sorcerer rather than the warblade. We've tried to indirectly provide power boosts to all the melee classes, but right now, that's a secondary goal.

    The Core concepts:
    The core idea is the idea of a mark, a single set of synergistic and fundamental abilities, similar to what might have previously been referred to as a kit in other editions. Each mark is relatively powerful, but works best when used with other marks in a careful and tactical way. Right now, I'm too tired from swine flu to offer a better explanation. Hopefully, our extensive work speaks for itself.

    Player-Versus-Player tests:
    Olo Versus Juris
    Claudius vs. PhoenixRivers
    Olo vs. PhoenixRivers
    Mushroom Versus Phoenix
    Phoenix Versus 9mm
    Last edited by Doc Roc; 2009-09-24 at 10:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Under construction

    Some notes:
    • While we bill them as fighter replacements, it'd be more accurate to suggest that they expand the core mechanics of the Tome of Battle and offer a broad spectrum of relatively accessible powers to a variety of comers.
    • Initiator Level is used due to the way it scales when you level outside the class, as well as the fact that it allows us to do integration with Tome of Battle classes and provides us a known framework for hanging our advancement on.
    • We will likely increase the degree of integration with Tome of Battle, and may change the IL stacking mechanism, which as it stands, encourages dipping a little more than we're really comfortable with. That said, some ability to dip in and out is a design goal.
    • We want your opinions. I don't care if you hate everything we've ever done. I want to hear it, but I want to know why in depth.
    • Right now, war-marked is largely stripped of any flavor elements. This is intentional. We, like most ramen companies, will be offering a variety of flavor packets down the road. Right now, though we're trying to get our noodle factory running.
    Last edited by Doc Roc; 2009-09-22 at 06:33 PM.
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    Default Re: The War-Marked: Part of the 3.52 fix pack

    Still working on making this play nice with swordsage and crusader.
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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    Do you intend to create marks from each type that could be fluffed as pure skill? If all War-Marked have to grow wings or tentacles or whatever the class can hardly be used to represent a skilled, mundane warrior, and is thus kinda lacking as a fighter fix, which is what i've understood this to be. Or do you think those kinds of warriors should use the warblade instead?
    Last edited by Rockbird; 2009-09-12 at 02:40 AM.


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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    There will be a variety of more mundane marks, but we want to try to step on Warblade toes as little as possible. It's quite easy to argue that we already have a little too much overlap. If you check the stacking mechanic however, and take a look at the feats, it's possible to benefit nicely from marks without ever being war-marked or with a relatively short dip as a normal ToB class.

    Still, you raise an excellent and painful point that we'll try to do something about.
    Last edited by Doc Roc; 2009-09-12 at 02:44 AM.
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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    One question: What happens if two people with Mark of the Elder Brain use abilities on each other? Does this just go into an infinite loop until one of them rolls a natural 1? What if they combine this with manuevers/items to make it impossible to roll a natural 1? What if all these actions break the limit on actions for both players? And more importantly, how do you fluff this? Both people thinking really hard at each other until one of them snaps and drools for a round?

    Also, how would I get access to edit the document? I can't seem to find a way to add notes to it, though I'm sure that is intentional.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2009-09-12 at 03:14 AM.

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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    I.... Hum.

    I guess it just... Huh.


    :: snaps and drools for a round ::
    Last edited by Doc Roc; 2009-09-12 at 03:25 AM.
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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    Exactly...

    EDIT: Actually, I realized they'd probably die of sheer mental exhaustion before they failed the save. For ToS purposes, that's 13d6/2 until one of them fails a save, which is unlikely.

    Also, what happens if somebody is surrounded by people with Mark of the Craven? Who does he hit or not hit?
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2009-09-12 at 03:28 AM.

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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    I'll cross the Club Craven bridge when we come to it. I'll think about it, though, because it is a relevant question. PM me with your e-mail address, and I'll grant edit rights.


    I'll see what I can do about the looping effect. Got any slick solutions in that clever head of yours?
    Last edited by Doc Roc; 2009-09-12 at 03:32 AM.
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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    For the looping part:

    "A successful save against this ability grants the target immunity to this ability until the start of your/their next round."

    I'm not entirely sure of whether it should be your or their next round, because I'm not a balance expert, but I do know that *should* prevent looping (although it would weaken the ability against successive attacks, I admit). At best, it just means that each person (in a ToS situation) would take 13d6/2 any time anybody caused a will save.

    EDIT: Better idea that also allows this to be used against successive spells:

    This ability may be activated IL/2 times per round.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2009-09-12 at 03:39 AM.

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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    What niche is this class intended to fill? If it's supposed to operate alongside the Warblade, then why does Fighter need replacing? It would seem to me that any objections to using Warblade as a substitute Fighter apply at least as much to the War-Marked (mechanical complexity, abilities insufficiently mundane, etc.).

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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    A lot of these abilities have no business being (Ex). Especially the ones that mimic spells. The incorporeality one is particularly egregious.

    The blink dog mark is pretty baffling. Especially since it can wield weapons. As a dog.

    I agree that this doesn't seem like a fighter replacement. It's more like some kind of mix of a martial adept and a Totemist. It's still a fine class if you work out the kinks, but it just doesn't strike me as the typical warrior type, i.e. a class that gets by on his skill with weapons.
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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    There are two reasons for introducing the Mark mechanic even if we take the fairly obvious balance step of using ToB instead of PHB melee classes.

    First, from a fluff perspective, the warblade is fundamentally mundane. A warblade is capable of moving quickly, jumping up and ripping you to pieces, or smashing through rocks, but these are all simply extrapolations of abilities appropriate for the mundane tier (level 5 and below). There's a reason that not a single warblade maneuver is flagged as (Su).

    That's not what the War-Marked is about, in terms of fluff. Our vision of the War-Marked was a character that approaches the idea of a martial tactician more than any other class - someone who will take the tricks and the tactics of the enemies he or she meets and use them even more effectively than the original enemies, while building up defenses against those tactics at the same time. Past about level 10, there are no more mundane enemies to rip off, nor is there much to further exploit about your own abilities, because past level 10 everyone in D&D is a superhero.

    If you want to play a mundane, heroic warrior, you should play a warblade (or the slightly-buffed Barbarian that we'll be releasing shortly). Those guys do what you're envisioning. We think that the Marks still have something to offer you, though.

    That's the second reason we wrote up the Marks. The intended balance point for the War-Marked is somewhere close to an all-books-open 3.5 sorcerer. The only combat builds that have ever approached that power level were intentionally exploitative, such as the Hulking Hurler, or gishes, like the Chrono-Legionnaire, or combat builds of full casters, like the Cleric Archer. Melee needs some help. It's common knowledge that Tome of Battle did not substantially increase melee power (a well-built 3.5 Barbarian beats a Warblade at all levels), only melee flexibility. We're trying to actually increase melee power.

    As a result, there are a number of ways to access lower-tier Marks as a more mundane warrior. You can take feats, but more importantly, War-Marked IL stacks 1:1 with any one other initiator class. That means that if you want a mundane warrior who picks up a few tricks with hir weapon or opens hirself up to a particular truth of combat, you can take 4-8 levels of War-Marked, take the rest of your levels in a ToB class, and get the mechanical benefits of Marks while still preserving a lot of the mundane flavor and not losing the IL progression for your own maneuvers. Crusader 14/War-Marked 6 (taking the 14th level of Crusader late enough to get an 8th-level stance) is a particular favorite of mine, especially because it also helps avoid some of the general emptiness of later levels in ToB classes.

    Claudius: The general tendency while writing the marks was to class everything (Ex) that we possibly could. A lot of those are going to have to change as we move on, although flight will generally remain (Ex) and a couple other things are (Ex) for a reason.

    The blink dog mark has been the subject of a lot of internal debate. I think you're probably right regarding the use of weapons.

    The comments about a fighter replacement are up above.

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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    Just to clarify: I have no problem with using the Warblade to represent "weapons dude". I had simply gotten the impression from other posts that this class was intended as the "fighter fix", and thus i felt i should point out that it doesn't really do that, thematically. At least as soon as you get to the magical beast marks. Still, it's a nice class .


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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    I think it would be more accurate to say that we're accessing a different archetype of the "fighting person." Instead of focusing on beating on stuff with weapons, we're focusing on the ability to adapt and be effective in any combat by picking up another trick. The 3.x fighter was supposed to be able to do that - that's what the bonus feats were for. Unfortunately, feats don't actually do that, especially in the presence of long feat chains that give mediocre bonuses.

    Incidentally, at least in my own tests, I felt that building a War-Marked was easier than building any other martial character except a Barbarian. You pick from a relatively small range of options given (aside from feats), and many of the options are passive, so you just have to write them down on your character sheet and use them. Even the active options are things that you mostly just choose to do reactively, and they don't generally "recover" aside from a set cooldown time. I found the War-Marked much easier to run as a DM than any of the ToB classes.

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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    Incorporeality is now (su). Originally, the rest of that mark was very-very weak. I'd argue that it still kinda is. I'll see what I can do.
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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by imperialspectre View Post
    I think it would be more accurate to say that we're accessing a different archetype of the "fighting person." Instead of focusing on beating on stuff with weapons, we're focusing on the ability to adapt and be effective in any combat by picking up another trick. The 3.x fighter was supposed to be able to do that - that's what the bonus feats were for. Unfortunately, feats don't actually do that, especially in the presence of long feat chains that give mediocre bonuses.

    Incidentally, at least in my own tests, I felt that building a War-Marked was easier than building any other martial character except a Barbarian. You pick from a relatively small range of options given (aside from feats), and many of the options are passive, so you just have to write them down on your character sheet and use them. Even the active options are things that you mostly just choose to do reactively, and they don't generally "recover" aside from a set cooldown time. I found the War-Marked much easier to run as a DM than any of the ToB classes.
    I see where you're coming from, and i applaud it. I do wonder if you have any example of warriors fighting, say, giant squid eventually growing tentacles? Examples from literature or mythology or somesuch, i mean. I can't come up with any myself, but maybe you know something i don't .

    (Note: This might be coming off as sarcasm, but that is not my intention.)

    Because i can see a fighter getting to ignore Freedom of Movement, or treating enemies as smaller sized in a grapple. Warriors picking up tricks from their experience is classic stuff. And i firmly believe that high-level warriors should be doing stuff that's bordeline magical in effect, because that's what high-level characters do. But maybe some of the marks should be less... Blatantly supernatural. At least in their appearance, if not in their magnitude. Like a mark emulating, i dunno, giants? Punching REALLY hard and whatnot. Keep the tentacle-growing, but give the option of still being a guy who's just that strong/skilled/fast for those who want it.
    Last edited by Rockbird; 2009-09-12 at 01:09 PM.


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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockbird View Post
    But maybe some of the marks should be less... Blatantly supernatural. At least in their appearance, if not in their magnitude. Like a mark emulating, i dunno, giants? Punching REALLY hard and whatnot. Keep the tentacle-growing, but give the option of still being a guy who's just that strong/skilled/fast for those who want it.
    Of course. But, you must understand, as we write the higher-level marks, those of outsiders, abberations, and so forth, there are less mundane-seeming abilities to replicate. Additionally, as is true with virtually any other aspect of roleplaying games, you can fluff the abilities to look like they're doing whatever you want.

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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by aethernox View Post
    Of course. But, you must understand, as we write the higher-level marks, those of outsiders, abberations, and so forth, there are less mundane-seeming abilities to replicate. Additionally, as is true with virtually any other aspect of roleplaying games, you can fluff the abilities to look like they're doing whatever you want.
    Also, we're about half-way done on marks. We wanted to release as soon as we hit a launchable milestone, so that people could test it, and we could get valuable feedback.

    It means a lot to me that the reception has been generally positive so far.
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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by aethernox View Post
    Of course. But, you must understand, as we write the higher-level marks, those of outsiders, abberations, and so forth, there are less mundane-seeming abilities to replicate. Additionally, as is true with virtually any other aspect of roleplaying games, you can fluff the abilities to look like they're doing whatever you want.
    True. I freely admit that i have a hard time conceptualizing what a level 20 warrior should be able to pull off myself, so i won't hold it against you that you went with a more supernatural approach .
    But my suggestion remains that should you be able to come up with abilities of approperiate power that seem less magic-y (Or more skill based, or whatever. I'm sure you get my point ), that'd be a good thing to add. I'm sure you'd already thought of that, though .

    Bloody fighter types needing to limit themselves. From now on, all martial characters get to shoot tac-nukes from their mouths at level 20.


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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockbird View Post
    Bloody fighter types needing to limit themselves. From now on, all martial characters get to shoot tac-nukes from their mouths at level 20.
    I guess you've seen some of my L20 full casters then? :)
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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    They wouldn't happen to involve anti-osmium?


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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    Why would I do something that's basically cheating when I can crack a planet in half using the RAW?
    Last edited by Doc Roc; 2009-09-12 at 01:56 PM.
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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockbird View Post
    True. I freely admit that i have a hard time conceptualizing what a level 20 warrior should be able to pull off myself, so i won't hold it against you that you went with a more supernatural approach .
    But my suggestion remains that should you be able to come up with abilities of approperiate power that seem less magic-y (Or more skill based, or whatever. I'm sure you get my point ), that'd be a good thing to add. I'm sure you'd already thought of that, though .

    Bloody fighter types needing to limit themselves. From now on, all martial characters get to shoot tac-nukes from their mouths at level 20.
    20 isn't the best balance point, either, and (as you may have noticed) the class is currently focusing on the 4-13 level range (which is, imo, one of the most enjoyable). There's still another capstone ability that hasn't been entirely fleshed out. The War-Marked is a flavorful, fun martial class that (with any luck) doesn't have to over-optimize into gimmicky archetypes (That is, Ubercharger, lock-down tripper, Jack B. Quick, Dragoons, etc.) to keep up with the speed at which a full caster's power scales. Simultaneously, it isn't trying to replace too many classes (Warblade, especially), and so there are limiting factors that we try to adhere to.

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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tidesinger View Post
    Why would I do something that's basically cheating when I can crack a planet in half using the RAW?
    And now i have an image in my head of a dude in a robe cracking planets like eggshells with a stick marked "raw".


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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    You know what's even more crazy than the Mark of the Craven brigade? A Mark of Craven Brigade in an all out brawl with everybody considering everybody else their ally (for flanking; it's a brawl, so it's reasonable smashing a mace over the guys head lets the other guy you don't know cut his legs off) with everybody having Mark of the Eldar Brain.

    Who KNOWS what the hell happens there. Everybody starts making masses of will save to not hit the X other flanking people, and then on any of the failed saves they have to make more failed saves because of the other flanking buddies, and on any of THOSE failed saves they have to make more... and with all the successful ones, somebody takes damage and has to make a will save, which can cause the first person to take damage and oh my god why just why!

    Extra points if everybody has huge amounts of reach from spiked chains.

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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    I'd... pay to play that scenario.
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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    Quick, somebody right up an adventure module!

    Fistbeard McBeardFist wanted an apprentice, so he started the worlds largest bar brawl. For some reason, only War-Marked Cravens of the Elder Brain showed up.

    HEAVEN OR HELL!

    LET'S ROCK!

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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    Actually, a couple of Brawl modules would make a pretty good test for this thing. I wonder... Maybe I'll roll down to the local game shop sometime soon and run some one-shots.
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    Default Re: The War-Marked [3.5, Base Class]

    Yeah, but this isn't your daddy's brawl. This is a brawl where a bunch of cowards are yelling "HIT HIM!" while also blowing up their enemies minds when trying to disobey.

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