Prestige classes for a sorcerer

[TheThan]

Ok so our party just hit level ten. And a lot of us are looking at prestige classes, the rogue is going into shadow dancer, while the bard is looking into some bardic prestige class [she doesn’t recall which I’ll find out later and lend a hand (newbie)]. So I though I’d at least look around and see what sorts of prestige classes are available for my sorcerer.

Now the problem is that I am not a blaster caster sorcerer. I am more like batman… well ok more like Robin. I have a good selection of buffs, debuffs, damage spells and other utility spells. I already checked out Complete Arcane and nothing really jumped out at me. So I was wondering if anyone here has any good ideas for a prestige class for a non-blasty sorcerer.

[Keld Denar]

Fatespinner and Mindbender are the only ones that don't have feat prereqs, although both have pretty heavy skill prereqs (so you might have to ask your DM if you can swap around some skill points). Fatespinner is fun if you have a couple of really good save vs X spells like Slow, Freezing Fog, or Baleful Polymoph. Mindbender nets you Telepathy 100', which is fun. Mindbender is really only a 1 level dip though, since it loses WAY too many caster levels. Fatespinner is great for the first 4 levels, and the 5th level is good if you don't mind the CL loss. The ability to pretty much auto-kill anyone, once a day is handy, but compared to everything else you'd get, might not be worth it, depending on your DM's play style.

The problem with most PrCs is that you kinda have to plan for them. Many have some pretty random skill prereqs (Profession: Gambler....seriously?) or heavy feat prereqs (Iot7V, Archmage, MotAO, Incantatrix).

If you can swap around one feat, Divine Oracle is pretty decent for a sorcerer. Doesn't really lose anything (other than the 1 feat), bumps your HD up to a d6, gives you "evasion" and eventually Persistant Foresight, along with giving you access to some really neat divinations such as Divination and Commune. Would be best if you could have entered it at 6 (requires skills of a 5th level character) because then you'd already have 5 levels in it.

All that said, you don't HAVE to PrC. Nothing wrong with more Sorcerer. Sure, you don't get any neato class abilities, but you also don't have to take any crappy prereq feats or skills, which is nice.

[Temet Nosce]

Best I can suggest is Mage of the Arcane Order, though I think that's in CArc anyways so you probably already glanced at it.

[Keld Denar]

Best I can suggest is Mage of the Arcane Order, though I think that's in CArc anyways so you probably already glanced at it.

Requires 3 feats (Arcane Prep, Cooperative Spell, any MM feat). At level 9, thats 3/4 of your feats, or 3/5 if you are human. Hard to just jump into if you hadn't been planning for it, and would probably be around level 16 as your first level if couldn't retrain (assuming you already have at least 1 MM feat, but don't have Cooperative spell or Arcane Prep).

Its useful, but the prereqs are REALLY steep, especailly if you are trying to get in late in the game without retraining/psychic reform/chaos shuffling.

[Ent]

Requires 3 feats (Arcane Prep, Cooperative Spell, any MM feat). At level 9, thats 3/4 of your feats, or 3/5 if you are human. Hard to just jump into if you hadn't been planning for it, and would probably be around level 16 as your first level if couldn't retrain (assuming you already have at least 1 MM feat, but don't have Cooperative spell or Arcane Prep).

Its useful, but the prereqs are REALLY steep, especailly if you are trying to get in late in the game without retraining/psychic reform/chaos shuffling.

Who needs feats at that point though?

[Temet Nosce]

Requires 3 feats (Arcane Prep, Cooperative Spell, any MM feat). At level 9, thats 3/4 of your feats, or 3/5 if you are human. Hard to just jump into if you hadn't been planning for it, and would probably be around level 16 as your first level if couldn't retrain (assuming you already have at least 1 MM feat, but don't have Cooperative spell or Arcane Prep).

Its useful, but the prereqs are REALLY steep, especailly if you are trying to get in late in the game without retraining/psychic reform/chaos shuffling.

There isn't really any reason for him to remain in Sorc though, and even if he can't get the feats before then he doesn't exactly have a lot of great options (probably his most decent option for now is Fatespinner if he can't jump into MotAO immediately, which is a four level class).

Really though, he should get out of Sorc ASAP regardless of what he can manage to get into.

[Volkov]

Archmage is always nice.

[Jack_Simth]

Who needs feats at that point though?

Sorcerers. They're feat-starved.

[TheThan]

Retraining is not really a problem. We’re running a very heavy “beer and pretzels” game. So the Dm is cool with retraining in the middle of the game. I’ve already completely reworked my feat selection once already, So I really doubt that switching around a few feats and skill will matter to him. I am happy with my sorcerer the way he is, so I’m really just testing the waters and seeing what I like.

It is a shame that you have to “build for” a prestige class. To me that has a lot of meta-game and power-gamer connotations. I know that not everyone that builds for a prestige class is a power gamer or meta-gaming, its just something that sticks in the back of my mind when I see it.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, its personal choice, but I personally don't think that PrCing for a sorcerer is AS vital as everyone makes it out to be. Like I said, lacking class features is what you pay off for being able to select your own feats as you choose. I'd rather have Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, Split Ray, Rapid Metamagic and maybe something like Flyby Attack or the feat that lets you take 10 on SR checks than have to lite feats on fire taking crap like Cooperative Spell and Arcane Preperation. But you know, thats me personally. Some PrCs are worth it (Incantatrix, Iot7V), but many just aren't worth that kind of investment. I don't even think Archmage is.

Fatespinner is good though, since it doesn't have feat prereqs. Still, its only 4 levels long (maybe 5, if you want to make your DM's BBEG cry). Still, the skill prereqs are pretty tough for a sorcerer since you only have 2-4 skill points per level, and Fatespinner requires some crossclass investments.

EDIT:
Building towards PrCs is one of the main drawbacks about a class/level system with prereqs. If you think its bad for casters, think about melee characters. Lots of them are killed horribly by crap feat reqs like Toughness, Dodge, Weapon Focus, and *shudder* Skill Focus. If you want to have cool class features you almost HAVE to multiclass. Spellcasters get cool class features every level, its called SPELLS, regardless of whatever else they get.

[Temet Nosce]

It is a shame that you have to “build for” a prestige class. To me that has a lot of meta-game and power-gamer connotations. I know that not everyone that builds for a prestige class is a power gamer or meta-gaming, its just something that sticks in the back of my mind when I see it.

Well, I view it this way... IC, if your character is getting into a PrC it's probably been a goal for him personally, and he's been working at it. The fact that's he collected the necessary mechanics to get into it is because IC he's been attempting to.

Although in your case since you're retraining I guess this doesn't really count. Still, like you said beer and pretzels so why get upset over doing a little meta-gaming to have fun? I personally tend to play more serious games, but it's not really gonna hurt anything if you're just getting together to drink and throw dice.

[TheThan]

Never said I was upset with it and it’s not necessarily a bad thing, its just something I “see” when it happens, I can ignore it.


Anyway I’ll take a closer look at a lot of the classes mentioned and see if I like any of them.

[amethal]

Retraining is not really a problem. We’re running a very heavy “beer and pretzels” game. So the Dm is cool with retraining in the middle of the game. I’ve already completely reworked my feat selection once already, So I really doubt that switching around a few feats and skill will matter to him.

I've never really seen a sorcerer prestige class that I liked. I have a soft spot for Loremaster, but the prerequisites are a nightmare.

If you really want to push the retraining rules to so far beyond breaking point that you can't even see them from there, go for fochlucan lyrist. Its more of a joke build than a serious one, but from memory it goes something like ex-Monk 2 / Druid 3 / Bard 1 / Sorcerer 4. (Involves an alignment change to get monk and bard levels.)

If you have the Pathfinder rules (PDF was $9.99 last time I looked) then the Pathfinder version of the Dragon Disciple is very cool. It does involve giving up 3 caster levels, and the use of Pathfinder's sorceror bloodlines.

EDIT - I forgot about Abjurant Champion. No reason NOT to take that class as a wizard / sorcerer, which is why I hate it.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

[QUOTE=Keld Denar;6914890]Yea, its personal choice, but I personally don't think that PrCing for a sorcerer is AS vital as everyone makes it out to be. Like I said, lacking class features is what you pay off for being able to select your own feats as you choose. I'd rather have Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, Split Ray, Rapid Metamagic and maybe something like Flyby Attack or the feat that lets you take 10 on SR checks than have to lite feats on fire taking crap like Cooperative Spell and Arcane Preperation. /QUOTE]

You get two metamagic feats back to make up for it.

[Leon]

Dracolexi from RoDragon is a nice one for Sorcerers

Needs one of two feats - Eschew mats or Still spell
8 ranks in Arcana,4 in Perform (oratory) 4 in spell craft
Be able to speak Draconic + Elf/Dwarf/Fire or Air

gets bonus Power word spells and access to Draconic words

[Pharaoh's Fist]

There's always Ruathar.

[TheThan]

Fatespinner
Wow after reading the class, I really like the idea of manipulating fate. it won’t take much to retrain into it, I just need profession: gambler and I’m set.

Mage of the arcane order:
This is pretty nifty class for a sorcerer, it grants me access to other spells I have beyond what I have chosen. That is cool. Not only that, it fits with a lot of the fluff in the game world and my character specifically. However I’m not sure I like the idea of getting arcane preparation as I like being able to cast a spell on the fly.

Divine oracle.
Not really interested in going that route, though its an interesting class.

[Optimystik]

Seconding Fatespinner, I always wanted to make a wildly popular Sorc/Fatespinner with a gambling problem.

Sorcerers. They're feat-starved.

I think he meant once you start the psychic reformation cheese, though I could be wrong.

[Adumbration]

Sandshaper from Sandstorm is always a solid choice for a sorcerer. It adds a massive amount of spells to your spells known, albeit with a loss of a casting level, if memory serves.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Fatespinner
Wow after reading the class, I really like the idea of manipulating fate. it won’t take much to retrain into it, I just need profession: gambler and I’m set.

Agreed. Also, it's a four level class. The last level is a trap.

Mage of the arcane order:
This is pretty nifty class for a sorcerer, it grants me access to other spells I have beyond what I have chosen. That is cool. Not only that, it fits with a lot of the fluff in the game world and my character specifically. However I’m not sure I like the idea of getting arcane preparation as I like being able to cast a spell on the fly.

Here's how you do this:

Take the feat Arcane Preparation. Yes, it's a wasted feat, but it lets you qualify for MotAO without forcing you to actually prepare anything. Then you'll need Cooperative Spell, which is another wasted feat. However, being able to pull the exactly right spell out of your arse at exactly the right time? Priceless.

The other one I would direct you to is also in Complete Arcane. It's called Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Sure, it is feat heavy, but most of those feats are also required for Archmage. So you could do something like Sorcerer10/Iot7V7/Archmage3.

[Myrmex]

Sandshaper, from Sandstorm, is a cool PrC. I think it loses two caster levels, one at 1st and 1 at 4th. The prereqs are just ranks in survival. First level nets you a TON of bonus spells known, including a bunch at levels you normally wouldn't get. The first 4 levels gets you some cool abilities, too.

Seconding Fatespinner, I always wanted to make a wildly popular Sorc/Fatespinner with a gambling problem.

I has a Red Etherguant with a gambling problem for a gestalt Planeswalker campaign. That was fun.

[ErrantX]

For sorcerers I like Incantatrix alot, combined with Rapid Metamagic. Get a lot of bang for your buck with that, go into Archmage later. I also tend to favor Sorcerers for gish or semi-gish, with Abjurant Champion/Eldritch Knight style builds. Those I tend to elemental theme, but that's just a preference of mine (I like Clap of Thunder/Storm Bolt with Energy Sub (Lightning) and Born of Three Thunders on a Sorc Gish).

-X

[HCL]

Sandshaper, from Sandstorm, is a cool PrC. I think it loses two caster levels, one at 1st and 1 at 4th. The prereqs are just ranks in survival. First level nets you a TON of bonus spells known, including a bunch at levels you normally wouldn't get. The first 4 levels gets you some cool abilities, too.



I has a Red Etherguant with a gambling problem for a gestalt Planeswalker campaign. That was fun.

Sandshaper loses caster levels at 1st and 6th, but I definitely recommend taking 5+ levels if you can get the touchstone, you get a boatload of spells known plus some cool features