XP for a PC NPC? 4e.

[Tyger]

What is the appropriate XP award for a DM NPC created using the full PC rules? My group of players recently took out the mini-BBEG for this portion of the adventure, a level 10 sorcerer made using the PC rules. I can't find anywhere what XP value that should have though.

Thoughts?

[MickJay]

Just give them a quarter of the NPC's total experience points to share between the players. Or a third, if you want to be generous

[Kurald Galain]

I'd estimate 25% more than a monster of the same level.

[Sipex]

4e?

You made it according to the player rules and didn't apply any templates (ie: Elite or Solo) to it?

Then it'd be standard Level 10 monster fare for the sorceror plus any experience if killing him counted as finishing a quest for your party.

What level is the party?

[Yakk]

There really isn't one.

An NPC built using PC rules has far too much nova power (they can burn all of their dailies) than they have defence (they have utterly crappy HP). Barring ridiculous defences (which are a bad idea for many reasons), they will drop nearly instantly from a full-on attack from a collection of PCs. Plus many PC abilities are designed to mesh with a party.

An appropriate XP award would imply that building an NPC by PC rules would generate anywhere close to a fixed amount of challenge. And it won't. So a fixed XP award is not appropriate.

Instead, you have to work out the XP award manually. How hard would that NPC be to defeat? Compare it to other challenges (probably combat challenges). How long would the battle take? How much in the way of PC resources? Was the NPC tactics sub-optimal? Is the NPC build sub-optimal to deal with a party? Would it generate a significant amount of danger that the PCs lose, or a party member would die?

[Tyger]

The party was level 7, comprised of a bard, warlord, paladin and swordsage.

The sorcerer in question was level 10, with full daily / encounter abilities to use. He, and his two level 8 brutes (2 Hellsword Cambions) killed one character and dropped another to unconciousness. The two that didn't fall were both heavily wounded. One of the Cambion's escaped when it became obvious that he would be killed soon if he stayed.

And yes, I was aware that the party would likely drop him relatively quickly, and his tactics reflected that. He lured the PCs into an area where he could take advantage of both his teleportation and flight to remain out of range of the majority of the party. He remained heavily mobile, had defense enhancing magic items, and took cover as soon as was reasonably possible.

All in all, the fight went about as I expected. The party blew most of their resources on the fight (i.e. I don't think there were any daily powers left to use) and used some great tactics to stay alive as well as they did... including managing to finish off the sorcerer by pushing him into a river right as it cascaded 30 feet to the sharp rocks below... it was a great ending to the fight.

I was thinking he'd be worth about 1500-1750 XP, sort of splitting the difference between a level 10 Elite and a Solo, and considering that the fight, even with the party fully prepared and fully able to blow everything on it, was still tough. That would make the entire encounter worth 2200 - 2500 which does put it squarely in the "darned hard" encounter range, about 4 levels above the party.

[Kurald Galain]

I was thinking he'd be worth about 1500-1750 XP, sort of splitting the difference between a level 10 Elite and a Solo, and considering that the fight, even with the party fully prepared and fully able to blow everything on it, was still tough.

In that case, remember the underlying principle that any number in an RPG is largely arbitrary, and that therefore any number you pick that the players are content with, is the right choice. Easy as pi

[Tyger]

In that case, remember the underlying principle that any number in an RPG is largely arbitrary, and that therefore any number you pick that the players are content with, is the right choice. Easy as pi

'

Roger that. They get 3.14159264 XP each. :)

[Mercenary Pen]

The party was level 7, comprised of a bard, warlord, paladin and swordsage.

Swordsage? In 4e? Either I'm missing something, or you meant a Swordmage.

In any case, I'd have to agree with others in saying that a higher PC-build character used by the DM has the potential to be overbalanced against an adventuring party. The simple fact that you have nothing beyond a lack of HP to stop you chucking down 3 dailies and 3 encounter powers before dropping back to the usual at-wills gives you the D&D equivalent to a missile- it doesn't have to defend itself unless a story mandate dictates otherwise, because a near endless supply of other monsters will be along in its wake, all it has to do is lay down a lot of damage to multiple PC's (quite possible with a Sorcerer last I knew) and you've taken a huge bite out of their healing surges and cut short an in game day.

However, in focussing on defence and mobility, you probably evened the odds against the party somewhat, causing your NPC to function more like a conventional monster than a suicide weapon.

I'd go for either straight elite XP, or halfway between standard monster and elite XP for the level personally.

[Thajocoth]

I give the same XP as an elite monster of the same level for a PC enemy. Elites get a +2 to saves over PCs, but don't have as many attacks or any feats. Solos though, they have extra ways of attacking & +5 to saves, so a PC enemy is about on par with an Elite, really.

[Meek]

I'd estimate 25% more than a monster of the same level.

I would say this as well. However, I would really adjust it depending on how the fight goes. If it gets to dump dailies on someone's face, it becomes a lot more challenging than other monsters of its level.

[Lycan 01]

I'd say give them the XP amount you'd give for a lvl 10 Elite Leader sort of enemy, give or take some XP since he was built as a PC instead of an NPC. He wasn't technically a solo, since he had bodyguards, but I'd say he deserves the title of Elite Leader...

[Yakk]

A monster not being alone is not proof it isn't a solo. Not. Not. No. Argh!

A fight that kills one character, and drops another to unconsciousness, where the PCs didn't screw up, is a level +4 to +6 fight or harder (depending on how combat-effective your characters are).

That makes the entire encounter a level 11 to 13+ fight.

Pick something in that range, then tack on a 'story' bonus or 'quest' bonus, because they managed to deal with what I hope was a major plot point (the sorcerer, I hope, was a major plot point).

And well done with the 'you pushed him into a raging waterfall' end to the bad guy fight.

[F.H. Zebedee]

They get no experience.

Any time a villain is pushed into a waterfall, they do not die. It's merely a tactical retreat. ;)

Seriously, pretty cool. I'd say that what you went with sounds about right. It'd be one thing to spring the guy on them and dump a truckload of dailies, but from what you're saying, it seems that the players came in with the right mindset for a huge boss fight, and were willing to go "nova" as well.