Just how far do virtual feats go [DnD 3.5]?

[OMG PONIES]

I have a character telling me that vampires qualify for Improved Grapple because they have a slam attack, which is like an improved version of Improved Unarmed Strike. I didn't buy it at first, but now I'm wondering--does Improved Unarmed Strike do anything a slam attack doesn't? As far as I know, it just removes the AoO you usually provoke for attacking unarmed. So, playgrounders, would a vampire automatically qualify for Improved Grapple?

[Douglas]

Improved Unarmed Strike can be used to make iterative attacks. A slam attack, as a natural weapon, cannot.

[Mongoose87]

Though RAW they do not, I think they should. It only makes sense for someone who relies upon grappling for their blood-drain attack to get Improved Grapple.

[Eldariel]

By RAW, you need the feat to get the feat. Note that Slams never get iteratives, among others. So yeah, no IUS benefits for those without it. Though Slam-attack is a particular case where houserules would make sense given that it represents the exact same thing as IUS.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Yeah, the whole artificial distinction between slam/unarmed strike/improved unarmed strike/monk's unarmed strike/etc. is really needlessly complicated and needlessly penalizing. In my games, unarmed strikes are unarmed strikes are unarmed strikes, and nothing seems to have broken so far. I'd say let him qualify.

[Ernir]

Improved Grapple requires Improved Unarmed Strike, and having a slam attack has nothing to do with having IUS. So RAW, no, vampires do not auto-qualify.

I would still say it is not an unreasonable houserule.

[The Rose Dragon]

I'm definitely curious how you talk to the character to get his opinion, and how he knows about the feats.

Are you sure you didn't mean "player"?

[OMG PONIES]

Haha, my players are quite the characters themselves.

[Totally Guy]

My nWoD Nosferatu has also been trying to find out about this D&D hobby.

Now he's trying to stat himself. Is that so wrong? He rolled 3d10s for stats because he D10s were all he had. Plus he cheats.

[The Rose Dragon]

My nWoD Nosferatu has also been trying to find out about this D&D hobby.

Now he's trying to stat himself. Is that so wrong? He rolled 3d10s for stats because he D10s were all he had. Plus he cheats.

Well played.

[Clementx]

Improved Grapple is for unarmed strikes, not natural weapons. What the player really is asking is for a way to get Improved Grab on a monstrous race. While there has never been a way to gain that ability, it wouldn't be too inappropriate to use feats. I would personally divide it up like the following:

Grab [monstrous] Prereq: Str 13, Dex 13, natural weapon. You can use your chosen natural weapon to initiate grapples in place of making an attack. You do not provoke an AoO for doing so.

Improved Grab [monstrous] Prereq: Str 13, Dex 13, Grab for chosen natural weapon. Your chosen natural weapon now has all the benefits of Improved Grab, allowing you to start a grapple after a successful attack as a free action.

[Telonius]

Another very subtle rule differences: IUS allows you to deal lethal or nonlethal at your option. If you want to deal nonlethal with a Natural attack such as a slam attack you have to take a -4 penalty.

That said, if Improved Natural Attack bumps up a Monk's damage higher than d3 to d4, I don't see why a Vampire couldn't qualify for Improved Grapple. If I were DM I'd allow it. If you're allowing a player to be a creature with LA+8 and fast healing 5, easier access to Blood Drain and 5 temporary hit points is going to be the least of your balance problems.

[OMG PONIES]

This is for a level 20 gestalt arena. The complete lack of balance is serving to balance everything out.

[kme]

Flavor wise they are not exactly the same. Slam attack represents just simple strike without much technique and is effective simply because your hands/fists are just hard/heavy/resilient/whatever. IUS and improved grapple represent special moves/maneuvers/techniques similar to the martial arts in real world.

[Crafty Cultist]

In oriental adventures I think it says that a creature with natural wepons counts as having improved unarmed strike.

ditto improved grab and improved grapple

[DragoonWraith]

I feel like this is one of those things where WotC said "actually writing rules for this would be horrifically complicated; let DMs figure it out on a case-by-case basis". Because, seriously, you'd have to write huge charts for which monster abilities serve for pre-requisites for which feats, and probably should say that it does for some monsters but not others, and then you need to add information about which extra feats every monster qualifies for... it'd be a mess. Much easier for a DM to say "yeah, that makes sense, go for it."

[Curmudgeon]

In oriental adventures I think it says that a creature with natural wepons counts as having improved unarmed strike.

ditto improved grab and improved grapple

It actually says a monster with natural weapons counts as having Improved Unarmed Attack for feat prerequisites only.

And, unfortunately, that's a 3.0 rules book, and the primary source for 3.5 in the area of feat prerequisites (Player's Handbook) overrules this.

Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The DUNGEON MASTER's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.