Too many systems of magic!

[taltamir]

Ok party, arcane caster - check, divine caster - check, Incarna resistance - check, spell resitance - check, psi resistance - check, truenamer... HA! that was a joke, they aren't really dangerous... ok party, anything I am forgetting?

Seriously, How many systems of magic do we actually need? Oh, I forget the wu jen, and warlock, and a few others I am sure...

[Zeta Kai]

Bio-magic?

[Stegyre]

I think of it as a buffet: you may pick and choose the dishes you want and leave the others alone. In that regard, more options are fine, as long as no one feels that they are required to "eat" them all.

[Foryn Gilnith]

You need monsters resistant to incarnum? Isn't incarnum mostly buff-type effects, and therefore would not be resisted?

[taltamir]

I think of it as a buffet: you may pick and choose the dishes you want and leave the others alone. In that regard, more options are fine, as long as no one feels that they are required to "eat" them all.

Except, in this case the baffet is trying to eat YOU. You have to have a caster of every type to counter casters of that type.

Worse though, you, the player, have to spend DAYS reading source materials and understanding what is going on... for example: No I did not read about any incarnum resistance, I just assumed there is some.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I like it. If I get bored with any abilities, I can track down a new one that interests me more. Basic definition:

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• Arcane spont: Pick at level up, watch for running out
• Arcane Prep: Pick at level up and start of day, watch for running out
• Divine Prep: Pick at start of day, watch for running out
• Martial: Pick at level-up, infinite
• Incarnum: Shift as-needed, infinite
• Initiator: Pick at level-up and shift as needed, infinite
• Psionics: Pick at level-up, scale as-needed, watch for running out
• Binder: Pick at start of day, infinite

That's all off the top of my head, and I may be misrembering Incarnum, but each is different with different uses, and each plays differently. Variety is more fun IMHO.

Edit: You're worried about resisting. Well, off the top of my head:

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• Arcane spont: SR, Saves, touch AC. Still not enough, but Arcane does everything and is borked.
• Arcane Prep: SR, Saves, touch AC. Still not enough, but Arcane does everything and is borked.
• Divine Prep: Same as arcane+martial, but weaker than arcane
• Martial: AC+HP
• Incarnum: AC+HP
• Initiator: Martial+some saves and touch AC
• Psionics: PR(SR qualifies thanks to transparency), Saves, touch AC. Arcane but balanced, though you need AC+HP for the PsyWar
• Binder: see Martial

And you probably can drop the SR, too. Nothing attacks any defense beyond what's listed in core.

[Tavar]

Except, in this case the baffet is trying to eat YOU. You have to have a caster of every type to counter casters of that type.

No, you really don't. Every form of magic can be countered by any other. Unless you specifically choose to go against what is suggested in the books, in which case you're the only one you can really blame.

Worse though, you, the player, have to spend DAYS reading source materials and understanding what is going on... for example: No I did not read about any incarnum resistance, I just assumed there is some.

Only if you the player wants to do that specifically, and if you want to do it why is it a chore?

[taltamir]

Bio-magic?

a cursory glance seems to show that basically you are a sorcerer that drains his own life to cast, resulting in the premature death of the player... There is actually PRECEDENCE for such in fantasy. However, while fairly suitable and cool for certain rare stories (AS THE ONLY SYSTEM OF MAGIC IN EXISTENCE), this doesn't seem like it would work in a game.

1. Nobody, ever, will use it unless it is the ONLY magic system in existence.
2. Even then, most would not use it since it is basically resulting in your death. Also I have no idea how a biomage could ever actually grow in strength, since practice makes perfect, and yet just 13 casts per level (as calculated by another) of the highest level spell results in your permanent death by level 10 to 20 depending on con.
3. You could play as an EVIL mage and drain the lifeforce of others... if it is the only magic system in existence and I am playing evil... sure why not!

So yea, if you wanted to nearly eliminate magic from your world, making it limited to a few dying heroes and villains, sure it could be quite a cool mechanic; I'd actually consider such a game. But generally, the penalties are way too harsh.

[Fax Celestis]

No, you really don't. Every form of magic can be countered by any other. Unless you specifically choose to go against what is suggested in the books, in which case you're the only one you can really blame.

This, exactly.

[taltamir]

This, exactly.

I thought "magic is magic is magic" WAS the alternate rules...

Still, overwhelming.

[Tavar]

I thought "magic is magic is magic" WAS the alternate rules...

Still, overwhelming.

Nope, pretty much all of them are very clear about how they interact with Core Magic, and the only one that even offers being non-transparent(psionics) strongly advises against it as it's difficult to balance.

[taltamir]

overwhelming in the sense of "read and understand them all so you can choose between them". Quite frankly I am at the "just pick one at random" stage.

[lsfreak]

overwhelming in the sense of "read and understand them all so you can choose between them". Quite frankly I am at the "just pick one at random" stage.

Just don't pick Vancian or Truenamer, they're the two most broken ones. For completely different reasons.

EDIT: To be more productive, yes it's a bit overwhelming your first time through. But incarnum, binders, psionics, and invocations (especially DFA) are all worth learning. Incarnum and binders are probably the most overwhelming but also, imo, the best. Just take an afternoon to read through Incarnum or the binders and get the basics down, at least.

[Fax Celestis]

Just don't pick Vancian or Truenamer, they're the two most broken ones. For completely different reasons.

EDIT: To be more productive, yes it's a bit overwhelming your first time through. But incarnum, binders, psionics, and invocations (especially DFA) are all worth learning. Incarnum and binders are probably the most overwhelming but also, imo, the best. Just take an afternoon to read through Incarnum or the binders and get the basics down, at least.

It took me two readthroughs of the Incarnum book to "get it", but it's now one of my favorite magic systems. I highly recommend it.

[taltamir]

Just don't pick Vancian or Truenamer, they're the two most broken ones. For completely different reasons.

EDIT: To be more productive, yes it's a bit overwhelming your first time through. But incarnum, binders, psionics, and invocations (especially DFA) are all worth learning. Incarnum and binders are probably the most overwhelming but also, imo, the best. Just take an afternoon to read through Incarnum or the binders and get the basics down, at least.

Heh, right now I am vanacian... But the game I am currently playing only HAS Two systems. Clerics with smaller spell list. And single school wizards derivatives with benefits. I am playing a transmutation specialist called rearranger.

I know of truenamers and that they totally suck...
I know a mediocre amount about wizards, sorcerers, and clerics.
I do not know ANYTHING about: incarnum, binders, and invocations
I know next to nothing about: psionics

in which order do you suggest going over them? keep in mind I have a busy school schedule so it will probably take me a month just to find the time to go over ONE of those.

[AmberVael]

I'd say go for Psionics next. It is really, really similar to the core spellcasting system, so it won't be hard to pick up.

Essentially:
Take spellcasting.
Instead of spell slots, give people power points.
Tada. You're done.

After that, go for Invocations. Also a pretty simple system.

You gain an ability. You can use it at will. Woohoo.

Then go for Binding. You pick out one or more sets of abilities per day, which really vary widely (anything from proficiencies to spell like abilities to skill bonuses).

Lastly, Incarnum. I love incarnum, but it really IS the most complicated system to learn (as it is entirely new and does have some complexity to it).
Basically? You choose new magic items every day. Except you also choose how good the magic items are, and possibly different aspects about them too.

[lsfreak]

Invocations are very simple: at-will supernatural abilities that replicate spells. And you get to breath fire/launch bolts of magic unlimited times, and can modify them to some extent (make the bolt of magic into a cone and make it deal negative levels).

Psionics are pretty simple: Take Vancian magic, but instead of being able to cast Y spells of X level, you have a total pool of X spell levels that you can use on any spell you know (i.e. mana system). You also have two forms of "metamagic" for it - one is actual metapsionic feats, one is built-in augmentation for certain abilities.

Binders: You choose between one and four sets of at-will supernatural abilities (depending on your level). The complexity here is that there's so many different combinations; you kind of have to know from the beginning which ones you're going after in order to pick the right feats and such. Advantage is the class itself can be built to fill any role you can think of, short of full-blown batman.

Incarnum: You choose new magic items to wear every day, and can change which ones are stronger and weaker every round. The most complex system to figure out and probably the most complex in terms of options, because there's so many items to choose from. Again, there's some more complexities as well, but that's the very basics.

I'd definitely suggest going over Binders or Incarnum first. To me, binders have a much more magic-heavy feel and I prefer them. I like the Incarnum system better than the binder system, but I like the binder class better than the incarnate or totemist classes.

[Temet Nosce]

Ok party, arcane caster - check, divine caster - check, Incarna resistance - check, spell resitance - check, psi resistance - check, truenamer... HA! that was a joke, they aren't really dangerous... ok party, anything I am forgetting?

Seriously, How many systems of magic do we actually need? Oh, I forget the wu jen, and warlock, and a few others I am sure...

I'd say one every year or so ought to do... except they're no longer releasing 3.5 sadly. Personally, I'm actually beginning to work my way through all the various means and classes and I'm wistful for when they still released more.

[taltamir]

thank you for all the suggestions.

out of curiosity. How many people here use 4e and think I should just skip on mastering the various 3.5 flavors and start crunching on 4e instead?

[arguskos]

thank you for all the suggestions.

out of curiosity. How many people here use 4e and think I should just skip on mastering the various 3.5 flavors and start crunching on 4e instead?

Eh, I vote 3.5. The depth and variety are greater there than on 4e. Oh, and we don't play 4e.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Seriously, How many systems of magic do we actually need? Oh, I forget the wu jen, and warlock, and a few others I am sure...

Wu Jen use arcane spells, and Warlocks use SLA's which are like those used by many core monsters.

[Ravens_cry]

There is a lot of life left in 3.5, what with all the books put out, and plenty of homebrew if you ever get tired of that. It's also really easy to come up with your own new material. Now, it's not balanced. But it can be fun, and that is what is important. Doesn't matter if your gamest, simulationest, narrativest, or all of the above, if you're grinning you're winning.

[taltamir]

Eh, I vote 3.5. The depth and variety are greater there than on 4e. Oh, and we don't play 4e.

we also don't play those other 3.5 magic systems :). So this is really for "the future".

Although, the way things are looking. We will be playing for a while.
But if we stop for some IRL reason, I wonder if I will find a new group that includes those exotic spell systems, or just uses 4e instead. Eh, I can just read them at leisure for now when i find time instead of really studying them. And if that happens I'll cross that bridge THEN.

That being said, seems like most people here prefer 3.5e :)

[arguskos]

Actually, I use Arcane, Divine, Invocations, Binders, Shadow Magic, Truenami- ok I can't type that w/o laughing a bit, and Psionics (though rarely). The only things I don't really use are Incarnum and Tome of Battle (and I'd prefer to not go into my reasons, suffice to say I have them and they work fine for me).

[taltamir]

Actually, I use Arcane, Divine, Invocations, Binders, Shadow Magic, Truenami- ok I can't type that w/o laughing a bit, and Psionics (though rarely). The only things I don't really use are Incarnum and Tome of Battle (and I'd prefer to not go into my reasons, suffice to say I have them and they work fine for me).

so wait... only sorcs and wizards are banned as written? I thought only the custom single spell arcanists and divine casters existed...
Ok, this changes thing. I should read up on some of those systems than.

[arguskos]

so wait... only sorcs and wizards are banned as written? I thought only the custom single spell arcanists and divine casters existed...
Ok, this changes thing. I should read up on some of those systems than.

Spoilered for folk that aren't in one of my games.

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Ok, here's the (mostly) complete class list for my games tal:
-Rearranger, Savant, Summoner, Beguiler, Bard, Warmage, Dread Necromancer
-Cloistered Cleric
-Elementalist Druid and Beastmaster Druid (I'll send you the details if you want them)
-Fighter
-Rogue
-Barbarian
-Paladin (and all the alignment varients)
-Ranger
-Monk (with like 4 different fixes so they don't suck)
-Knight
-Duskblade
-Dragon Shaman
-Dragonfire Adept
-Warlock
-Binder
-Shadowcaster
-Truenamer (only if someone REAAAAALLY wants it)
-Scout
-Swashbuckler
-Hexblade
-Ninja
-Spellthief
-Savant
-Mountebank
-Jester
-Battle Dancer
-Psion, PsyWar, Wilder are all available on a provisional, case-by-case basis only

*whew* I think that's everything.

[Sinfire Titan]

Except, in this case the baffet is trying to eat YOU. You have to have a caster of every type to counter casters of that type.

Worse though, you, the player, have to spend DAYS reading source materials and understanding what is going on... for example: No I did not read about any incarnum resistance, I just assumed there is some.

It's called Spell Resistance. About 8 soulmelds even allow it. There's a feat that grants it, but its pretty damn useless (at least the Psionic version was able to block out an entire school of magic).

It doesn't even pop up if you're playing a meldshaper unless you are playing one of two specific builds (the DFA_Wannabe Totemist and a CN Incarnate).

Soulborn doesn't exist. This reduces the amount of reading you need to do with Incarnum.

out of curiosity. How many people here use 4e and think I should just skip on mastering the various 3.5 flavors and start crunching on 4e instead?

4E crunches like stale Goldfish. Moldly ones at that. PH3 may fix this if Dragon is any indication (maybe). But 3.5 has more crunch than 4E, easily.

If you want simple, cookie-cutter style classes that require nothing beyond a lite afternoon's read to play for the Core rules (splats introduce some new mechanics, but not much), then 4E is fine. If you want versatility in your system, play 3.5.

4E has a few good points (Barbarian, Artificer, Bard), but it has just as many bad (Wizard, errata nerfs ala MTG pre-Onslaught, stagnant class design within the core rules, being broken even with errata, the list goes on for a little while).

[PairO'Dice Lost]

4E crunches like stale Goldfish. Moldly ones at that.

Hey hey HEY! Don't dis goldfish, man! Even stale they're pretty darn tasty. Make it Saltines or Cheez-its and I'd agree with you.


The issue I have with 4e's power sources is that when I have different subsystems, I want them to work differently. I like dealing with essentia, power points, spell slots, etc. If you think they're overly complex, I suppose you could go with 4e, but switching to it just because you don't like 3e's magic systems would be like playing 3e just because you couldn't keep the fighter's, ranger's, and rogue's powers straight.

[taltamir]

i hope you mean the junk food and not the living animal :)

[Yora]

My games have Wis-based Druid magic, Wis-based Priest magic, and Cha-based Witch magic. All based on psions with some class features and different spell lists.