What Attributes Matter to You?

[Zovc]

I'm considering some things for a game system I may or may not make, and am having a hard time deciding what attributes I want to quantify. So, I'm asking for help.

What attributes do you think need to be recorded on a character sheet? Strength is important, but could be broken up into different things. Is Strength also Dexterity and/or Constitution? Do you care about reaction times (/initaitive), willpower, or anything of that nature?

Don't just think of this in a sword and sorcery fantasy context, what aspects of your favorite super spy do you want to see represented? What about the cyberpunk android?

I'm partial to anything right about now. I think you need more than 3 abilities in order for there to be a significant variety between characters; more than 12 sounds overly complex.

[AlistairThorne]

Physical
Strength (Physical Strength of all sorts)
Agility (Flexibility, Dexterity, I just prefer Agility)
Endurance (I never liked the name Constitution. :P)
Coordination (Hand/Eye Coordination which is what really matters for things like archery, shooting guns, etc.)
Appearance (Obvious enough I think.)

Mental
Intellect (Analytic Ability)
Wisdom (Personal Discipline, Common Sense)
Charisma (Sociability, Natural Allure of your personality)
Memory (Information Retention, mostly affects learning curve. And complex things like casting spells or writing a brute force cracking utility from memory.)
Intuition (Luck, Spirit, whatever you want to call it. It basically lets you put a little 'spin' on the dice, to a point. Positive or negative.)

[Weimann]

My main attributes would have to be:

Strength - Physical power and fortitude. The raw force behind your character, and resistance to physical manipulation.
Dexterity - Nimbleness, flexibility and speed. The ability to control your body.

Perception - How well you take in situations, details, moods and sceneries.
Understanding - Processing given information, drawing conclusions and common sense.

Spirit - Willpower, metal fortitude and ability to persevere.
Presence - Force of personality. Your ability to get points across, and to exert your will on others.

Why not a stat for hit points?
Because it misses the point. Unless there is some mechanic that makes survivability a non-issue for some classes or characters, EVERYONE needs a high score here. In my mind, that means a certain amount of character creation points (I'll assume that's the system used to generate stats ^^) that will have to go into that stat to not be one-shotted the first encounter. In such cases, why not just give everyone that from the start instead? It's much funnier and more satisfying to be able to distribute your points according to your own head, than have a nagging feeling that you're Doing It Wrong.

What about beauty?
While I do like the concept of an appearance stat, there is a lot of trouble with it. For example, it's politically inconvenient. It's a common opinion that winning favours due to your looks is a kind of cheating, and something that non-qualified people tend to resort to. Therefore, beauty is a stat that risk being solely descriptive and relevant only in roleplay, and as important as roleplay and immersion is, I'm of the opinion that if something doesn't grant a mechanical bonus, you shouldn't have to spend character creation points on it. Bottom line: it could be here, but that's provided it actually gets used frequently in relevant situations.

[I_Got_This_Name]

Depends on what you're building the system for.

Take Dexterity, for instance. You'll want to split Coordination and Agility up if you're doing a game about gunslingers, since it's that important. On the other hand, D&D only needs one stat.

Likewise, your gunslinger game doesn't need to value Strength or Stamina (one hit and you're out, unless you're lucky); it can fold them together no problem

You don't necessarily need separate Willpower and Assertiveness stats in a game about starfaring engineers. On the other hand, a game about diplomats will likely use those, but might fold logic and memory into one stat, where the engineers separate them. Perception might be its own stat in a game where you play as patrols in a guerilla war, but you can fold it into something else for Three Musketeers. Three Musketeers also doesn't necessarily need an Intelligence stat separate from Charisma (not much point to being smart there unless you're a good communicator), while the guerillas might have Tactics and Leadership as separate stats.

[Myou]

If I were making D&D 3.5 anew I'd probably go with something like;

• Power: Determines all damage, HP, carrying capacity, endurance, resistance to non-magical effects (poison, etc). Also powers str- and con-based skills.
  
  
• Agility: Determines speed, attack rolls, initiative, AC, ability to dodge effects (explosions, traps, etc). Also powers dex-based skills.
  
  
• Intellect: Determines skill points & acts as primary casting stat (not ideal for sorcerer/cleric concepts, but more mental stats just means more dump stats for any class that doesn't cast from them). Also powers int- and wis-based skills.
  
  
• Willpower: Determines resistance to magical effects and determines force of personality. Also powers cha-based skills.

By only using four stats you decrese the flexability of character creation, but also improve balance. Even a wizard no longer has a real dump stat - if he dumped Will he'd be very vulnerable to other casters, if he dumped Int he couldn't cast spells, if he dumped Agi he couldn't ever go first or dodge attacks, and if he dumped Pow then he'd have almost no HP.

Baically, every class becomes more MAD, except for those already highly MAD, who come closer to SAD.

Oh, and Cha/Appearance is a bad idea - that's an automatic dump stat for anyone but the party face, so really it just penalises the face.

[Jogi]

If I were making D&D 3.5 anew I'd probably go with something like;

• Power: Determines all damage, HP, carrying capacity, endurance, resistance to non-magical effects (poison, etc). Also powers str- and con-based skills.
  
  
• Agility: Determines speed, attack rolls, initiative, AC, ability to dodge effects (explosions, traps, etc). Also powers dex-based skills.
  
  
• Intellect: Determines skill points & acts as primary casting stat (not idea for sorcerer/cleric concepts, but more mental stats just means more dump stats for any class that doesn't cast from them). Also powers int- and wis-based skills.
  
  
• Willpower: Determines resistance to magical effects and force of personality. Also powers cha-based skills.

By only using four stats you decrese the flexability of character creation, but also improve balance. Even a wizard no longer has a real dump stat - if he dumped Will he'd be very vulnerable to other casters, if he dumped Int he couldn't cast spells, if he dumped Agi he couldn't ever go first or dodge attacks, and if he dumped Pow then he'd have almost no HP.

Baically, every class becomes more MAD, except for those already highly MAD, who come closer to SAD.

Oh, and Cha/Appearance is a bad idea - that's an automatic dump stat for anyone but the party face, so really it just penalises the face.

Im with this guy.

Beetwen, you might want to take a look at GURPS game system.

[RelentlessImp]

Strength
Perception
Endurance
Charisma
Intelligence
Agility
Luck

Because you are. Or at least your character is.

[Mangles]

agreed i always liked the special system...it just made sense

[Knaight]

I usually stick to physical or mostly physical attributes and let players play their characters at whatever level of intellect, charisma, etc. they want. My typical set up:
Strength
Agility

Splits in to Coordination

Splits in to Reflexes

Toughness

Splits in to Pain Tolerance

Splits in to Stamina

Splits in to Poison and Disease Resistance

Splits in to Resistance*

Perception

Splits in to Vision

Splits in to Hearing

*Resistance means how well you survive being struck in combat, falling objects landing on you, etc. Pain tolerance determines how well you retain focus after this happens.

All of the indented attributes are optional, anyone may have a specialty for an attribute, +1 in Fudge, +2 in d20, but another part of the attribute takes a penalty, -1 in Fudge, -2 in d20. Also consider specialties that vary by campaign.

[Telonius]

Strength - can you lift the 300 pound boulder?
Agility or Dexterity - can you dodge the incoming projectile?
Endurance - can you continue on the forced march?
Toughness - can you take a punch?

Book Smarts - do you know the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? Do you know where to look it up if you don't?
Worldly Experience - are you smart in just one area, or do you know that there are African as well as European swallows? Can you remember where you put your keys?
Social Perception - can you figure out people and situations easily? Do you know when a fight is about to break out? Can you easily recognize potential allies and enemies?
Charisma - can you project a good image of yourself? Do you go along with the group, or are you self-assured?

I'd say that a general "Perception" score would be about equal in most people, unless a character either had a disability (nearsighted, hard of hearing, etc) or was particularly well-trained in looking for things (crime scene investigator, "expert treasure hunter," etc). It would be better handled by flaws and traits (for disabilities) or skills (for training).

[Dragatus]

If I were making D&D 3.5 anew I'd probably go with something like;

• Power: Determines all damage, HP, carrying capacity, endurance, resistance to non-magical effects (poison, etc). Also powers str- and con-based skills.
  
  
• Agility: Determines speed, attack rolls, initiative, AC, ability to dodge effects (explosions, traps, etc). Also powers dex-based skills.
  
  
• Intellect: Determines skill points & acts as primary casting stat (not idea for sorcerer/cleric concepts, but more mental stats just means more dump stats for any class that doesn't cast from them). Also powers int- and wis-based skills.
  
  
• Willpower: Determines resistance to magical effects and force of personality. Also powers cha-based skills.

By only using four stats you decrese the flexability of character creation, but also improve balance. Even a wizard no longer has a real dump stat - if he dumped Will he'd be very vulnerable to other casters, if he dumped Int he couldn't cast spells, if he dumped Agi he couldn't ever go first or dodge attacks, and if he dumped Pow then he'd have almost no HP.

Baically, every class becomes more MAD, except for those already highly MAD, who come closer to SAD.

Oh, and Cha/Appearance is a bad idea - that's an automatic dump stat for anyone but the party face, so really it just penalises the face.

This. Less attributes means each one is more important. It also means it's harder to take a bit from several less important ones to get a big bonus to that single really important stat.

[Myou]

Im with this guy.

Beetwen, you might want to take a look at GURPS game system.

This. Less attributes means each one is more important. It also means it's harder to take a bit from several less important ones to get a big bonus to that single really important stat.

Thanks guys. :3

[Godskook]

Huh, honestly, I'm for more attributes, but on the one hand, making them harder to 'dump' by sectioning them off into groups that advance separately, and by making them matter more somehow...

[Yakk]

I sort of like Trope based systems, or "attributes that not everyone has" style systems.

A character who is "Strong" has that feature. It gives them bonuses. If you aren't Strong, your strength really doesn't matter (unless you are Weak).

You can then break features down into Complications and Abilities. Complications are things that bring the spotlight onto you, but tend to not advance your character's goals -- abilities are things that help your character along their goals, and also put spotlight on your character.

When you want something to happen or not happen, you'd then use your Trope to assert your authorship on the situation.

For a systematic game, you could have a fixed set of Tropes and mechanics attached to each. So in a spy game, you might have a bunch of pre-made ability tropes:
I Have a Gadget, Suave and Charming, Tough as Nails, Athletic and Mobile, Connected and Streetwise, Sneaky and Stealthy, Lucky as Heck, Intuitive and Perceptive, etc.

Then attach to each such trope mechanics that can be used with it.

Finally, have a general Competent trope (which might correspond to level) that gives a bonus regardless of what other trope you can apply to a situation.

Balancing this isn't easy -- but it seems better than giving everyone an Attractiveness stat. If a character is drop-dead gorgeous, that is a feature worth mentioning on a character sheet -- or if they are ugly. If they are neither, or they aren't enough of either to matter to the story of the gameplay, it really shouldn't take up character sheet complexity or real estate.

This also means that if a player is Strong, they will tend to solve problems by being Strong. Which I think is good.

But that is just me. :)

[Weimann]

That is really an interesting system, Yakk. Do you know of any game that uses it?

[The Rose Dragon]

That is really an interesting system, Yakk. Do you know of any game that uses it?

Fudge, or its later incarnation FATE. As well as Spirit of the Century, the pulp game that uses FATE.