A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
You can get A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2 now at Gumroad
Results 1 to 21 of 21
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    Machinist

    -Image by Robert Christiansen.

    A unique specialization of engineer, the machinists seek to build upon their unique mecharmor suits in the hopes of becoming powerful warriors. If perhaps not as prone to innovation as engineers, machinists are no less clever, inventing marvelous contraptions that drastically shape and modify their mecharmors until they become veritable machines of war.

    Requirements: To qualify to become a machinist, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
    Skill: Knowledge (architecture/engineering) 10 ranks.
    Engineer Vocations: Enhanced Performance Vocation, Mecharmor Vocation

    Table: The Machinist
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Speed Bonus

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |Overdrive 1/day, Vocation|
    +5 ft.

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |Fortified Plating|
    +5 ft.

    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |
    +1
    |Vocation|
    +10 ft.

    4th|
    +3
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |Overdrive 2/day|
    +10 ft.

    5th|
    +3
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |Vocation|
    +15 ft.

    6th|
    +4
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |Fortified Plating|
    +15 ft.

    7th|
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |Vocation|
    +20 ft.

    8th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |Overdrive 3/day|
    +20 ft.

    9th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Vocation|
    +25 ft.

    10th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Augmented Body, Fortified Plating|
    +25 ft.

    [/table]

    Hit Die: d10
    Class Skills: The machinist's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Jump (Str), Knowledge (architecture/engineering) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int Modifier

    Class Features
    All the following are class features of the machinist prestige class.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Machinists gain proficiency with heavy armor but with no weapons.

    Fast Movement (Ex): While in his suit of mecharmor, a machinist gains an enhancement bonus to his speed, as shown on Table: The Machinist. This speed bonus stacks with the bonus gained from the engineer base class.

    Overdrive (Ex): Knowledge of his mecharmor has given the machinist the ability to push their machine to its limits, greatly increasing combat efficiency. You can push your mecharmor into overdrive a number of times per day as shown on Table: The Machinist. While wearing your mecharmor during overdrive, your physical strength and reflexes are mechanically amplified, giving you a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, a +4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity, and cannot be flanked as if you had the Improved Uncanny Dodge ability. Overdrive lasts for a number of rounds equal to your machinist level plus your Intelligence modifier. Entering overdrive takes no time itself, but you can do it only during your action, not in response to someone else’s action, although you can voluntarily end overdrive at any time.

    After overdrive ends, you are incapable of making use of any vocations with the mecharmor as a prerequisite for two minutes as your mecharmor recharges.

    Vocation (Ex): Much like an engineer, a machinist gains vocations that represent his specialized abilities. At first level and every odd level after (3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th) a machinist chooses one vocation from either the machinist or the engineer vocation lists. Similar to feats, a machinist must meet all prerequisites before taking a vocation. Unless otherwise stated, a vocation can only be taken once.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Automated System
    Prerequisite: Enhanced Performance, Mecharmor
    Description: By implementing the existing movement modes of your mecharmor, you are capable of letting your suit perform actions for you. While wearing your mecharmor, you are immune to the effects of fatigue and exhaustion.

    Blast Jets
    Prerequisite: Enhanced Performance, Mecharmor, Physics
    Description: Equipping your mecharmor with a number of small engines that can generate thrust. While in your mecharmor, you gain a +10 circumstance bonus on all Climb and Jump checks. Additionally, this vocation can be taken multiple times, each time granting an additional +10 circumstance bonus on Climb and Jump checks.

    Energy Conductor
    Prerequisite: Enhanced Performance, Mecharmor, Neuroarcanics
    Description: Using the innate systems of your mecharmor, you can absorb certain energies to be unleashed in a powerful current. While in your mecharmor, you gain resistance 10 against Electricity and Fire damage. When struck by an attack that deals either one of these energy types, you can absorb up to 10 points of damage per machinist level each into your suit and release some of this damage as an instant action against an opponent that successfully strikes you with a natural attack or unarmed strike.

    Evacuation
    Prerequisite: Enhanced Performance, Mecharmor
    Description: By installing this handy addition to your mecharmor, you can quickly get into or out of your armor with ease. Donning your suit mecharmor is now a full-round action. In addition, you can quickly eject yourself from your mecharmor as a swift action that propels you 20 feet away from the mecharmor in any direction of your choosing.

    Insulated Fortification
    Prerequisite: Enhanced Performance, Mecharmor
    Description: You have modified your mecharmor to resist outside hazards, as well as intense structural damage. While inside your mecharmor, you become immune to poisonous gases, bad odors, and contact poisons. In addition, whenever you are hit by a critical or sneak attack while in your mecharmor, there is a 25% chance that the extra damage will be negated.

    Life Support System
    Prerequisite: Enhanced Performance, Insulated Fortification, Mecharmor
    Description: A marvel of technological innovation, you have constructed a complex array that mechanically enhances your ability to resist temperature, water hazards, and to monitor your vital systems. While in your mecharmor, you can effectively hold your breath underwater for four times your normal number duration, and can take standard and full-round actions without reducing the duration that can you can hold your breath. You can also comfortably survive in temperatures between -50 degrees and 150 degrees. Additionally, when you are knocked unconscious or are otherwise helpless while in your mecharmor, the suit acts on your behalf, relying solely on the total defense action, until you become conscious, are removed from the suit, or killed.

    Rocket Punch
    Prerequisite: Enhanced Performance, Mecharmor
    Description: The metallic fists of a suit of mecharmor are far more powerful than your own, and you have learned to use this attack in combat. While in your mecharmor, you gain two slam attacks that deal 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage. This attack counts as your primary natural attack while in your mecharmor. Additionally, you can use your slam attack as a rocket punch to target enemies within 15 feet as a ranged attack. The fists return immediately after being fired.

    Sonic Thrusters
    Prerequisite: Blast Jets, Enhanced Performance, Mecharmor, Physics
    Description: With some slight alterations of your mecharmor's blast jets, you are now capable of flight. While in your mecharmor, you gain a fly speed with poor maneuverability equal to your Speed Bonus as shown on Table: The Machinist.

    Fortified Plating (Ex): At 2nd level and every fourth level after (6th and 10th), a machinist increases the efficiency of his mecharmor's defenses. A machinist can choose to increase the armor bonus gained by his mecharmor by +1 or to gain damage reduction 2/adamantine.

    Augmented Body (Ex): At 10th level, a machinist has modified his mecharmor so greatly that the machine increases size. While in his suit of mecharmor, an engineer are counted as one size larger, suffering a -1 penalty to AC and attack rolls and a -2 size penalty to Dexterity, but gains a +2 size bonus to Strength. The engineer's space and reach also increase to a creature of one size category larger.
    Last edited by Lappy9000; 2010-04-15 at 09:35 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Another_Poet's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    New Orleans and abroad
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    I think both classes are awesome, and dovetail nicely with 3.5 mechanics to introduce technology that wouldn't normally be found in 3.5 games. I'd consider playing an Engineer (though probably not a Machinist) if my Wizard dies in the Ravenloft campaign I am currently playing. Assuming my DM would allow it, of course.

    The class seems to be a Tier 2 class (as is the Engineer IMO) - capable of holding its own, but unlikely to ever steal the spotlight. While better than a Fighter in every way, the Machinist simply does not have the chops to keep up with a wizard or druid. That might actually be a good thing from a game balance perspective, but is unlikely to endear the class to most GitPers. If seasoned 3.5 gamers are your core audience you may want to give this thing some more options.

    One nitpick is your use of "Vocations." I like the word just fine, but it seems to be misused here (and in the Engineer class). A vocation is a career or profession. In the religious sense it can also be a mission or divine purpose one is called upon to achieve. Literally it means "calling" from the Latin. It does not mean, nor have I ever seen it used to describe a technique, manoeuvre or piece of technology. Yet all the things you listed as "Vocations" are either techniques, manoeuvres or technology. They are achieved through the technical capabilities of the machine. While I understand that it's hard to come up with thematic terms for things, Vocation is just inaccurate. I would suggest calling them "Systems" "Devices" or perhaps "Augments." Even "Programmes" or "Executables" would be fine if you want a more modern feel to it. Just a thought.

    Also, a suggestion. There should be a System (er, uh, "Vocation") that further increases base land speed. This could be a variation on the Blast Jets or Sonic Thrusters. Alternately, you could call it Automatic Transmission. +30' land speed, stacks with Fast Movement? Or maybe it doubles your Fast Movement bonus and thus scales with level? Sounds like a lot but it's not much when you consider that a mount could give you far more mobility than that, and it doesn't grant Pounce or anything.

    Have you considered ways of interfacing the mecharmour with other class abilities? Your Engineer class makes clear that the mecharmour works as the base suit of armour, so it would carry spell failure chance and would prevent a scout from using their abilities. That's a shame - with the fast movement and special combat advantages, I would love to combine this suit with Scout for skirmish damage. Maybe there can be a Vocation to count the Mecharmour as light armour for purposes of class abilities (armoured mage, skirmish, etc.)? And how about an Vocation to simply reduce the spell failure of a mecharmr suit by x%?

    Also, to me at least, mecharmour has much in common with a horse or other mount. Can you add a Vocation that allows the Machinist to count as mounted for purposes of Mounted Combat? Then the Machinist could use Rideby Attack and Spirited Charge if they have those feats, and could deal double damage when charging with a lance whether they have mounted combat feats or not. It would let you tap into a whole pile of existing mechanics, seems thematically appropriate and makes sense with the higher speed of these machines.

    (Note that I worded that very carefully, it allows "the Machinist to count as mounted for purposes of Mounted Combat" - it does not count the armour as a mount, which would cause rules problems.)

    Last, a question for you. Have you seen the Iron Kingdoms campaign setting? If so, what made you decide to homebrew these classes instead of using/adapting the IK equivalents? The Arcane Mechanik does the same thing as your Engineer, Warcaster does the same as your Machinist and characters of any class can purchase steam armour in the Iron Kingdoms which is more powerful than the mecharmour presented here. I don't fault anyone for deciding against using IK's large, bulky mechanika system, but it certainly is a modular system with a heck of a lot of options. So I'm just curious what, if anything, prompted you to make your own equivalent.

    ap
    Last edited by Another_Poet; 2009-09-15 at 01:43 PM.
    I just published my first novella, Lúnasa Days, a modern fantasy with a subtle, uncertain magic.

    You can grab it on Kindle or paperback.

    Proud to GM two Warhammer Adventures:


    Plays as Ulrich, Student of Law

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    As a fellow Techie in the playground, I really like what you have here. I can't really say more than the previous poster as he's covered all the bases I would have. A really good job on that review, by the by.

    I'd really love is to use this as a PrC for my Clockworker base class. But my class doesn't give the very specific abilities (vocations) needed to take your PrC. It does give breakthroughs; granted it doesn't do the mecharmor, but it does do a number of very similar things.

    I'd hate to butt into your class here and ask for changes that wouldn't benefit anyone but me, but I think it would be really awesome to have a Clockwork Minion (golem) running around with you while you're jogging along in your steam powered armor.

    Any chance for a little rewording and the ability to pick up the kick ass armor at 1st level of the PrC?

    DeadEnded~

    P.S. I'll give you a cookie!
    Last edited by DeadEnded; 2009-09-15 at 02:19 PM.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern.
    If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature (mine was on an hangman's platform)

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Another_Poet View Post
    I think both classes are awesome, and dovetail nicely with 3.5 mechanics to introduce technology that wouldn't normally be found in 3.5 games. I'd consider playing an Engineer (though probably not a Machinist) if my Wizard dies in the Ravenloft campaign I am currently playing. Assuming my DM would allow it, of course.
    Awesomesauce, I'm glad you like them

    Quote Originally Posted by Another_Poet View Post
    The class seems to be a Tier 2 class (as is the Engineer IMO) - capable of holding its own, but unlikely to ever steal the spotlight. While better than a Fighter in every way, the Machinist simply does not have the chops to keep up with a wizard or druid. That might actually be a good thing from a game balance perspective, but is unlikely to endear the class to most GitPers. If seasoned 3.5 gamers are your core audience you may want to give this thing some more options.
    Both of them are meant to be around Tier 2 classes, so I'm glad that worked out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Another_Poet View Post
    One nitpick is your use of "Vocations." I like the word just fine, but it seems to be misused here (and in the Engineer class). A vocation is a career or profession. In the religious sense it can also be a mission or divine purpose one is called upon to achieve. Literally it means "calling" from the Latin. It does not mean, nor have I ever seen it used to describe a technique, manoeuvre or piece of technology. Yet all the things you listed as "Vocations" are either techniques, manoeuvres or technology. They are achieved through the technical capabilities of the machine. While I understand that it's hard to come up with thematic terms for things, Vocation is just inaccurate. I would suggest calling them "Systems" "Devices" or perhaps "Augments." Even "Programmes" or "Executables" would be fine if you want a more modern feel to it. Just a thought.
    You'll notice that most of the terms based of real physics, biology, and chemistry are also misused. I apologize if such a thing bugs you, but augments are already used in psionics, and the rest are terribly overused.

    History!!! Originally, the engineer took up a single vocation that determined what features he could adopt from a list of Architect, Excavator, Machinist, and another one that never got completed. The "vocation" was his job and his calling. However, the idea turned out to be too restrictive (everyone was just gonna pick "machinist" anyway). The thread had gotten several hundred views at that point, and everyone was actually using my terminology, so didn't seem prudent to fix it. (Besides, this is fantasy genre; if it sounds good [as we've already established], it'll work just fine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Another_Poet View Post
    Also, a suggestion. There should be a Vocation that further increases base land speed. This could be a variation on the Blast Jets or Sonic Thrusters. Alternately, you could call it Automatic Transmission. +30' land speed, stacks with Fast Movement? Or maybe it doubles your Fast Movement bonus and thus scales with level? Sounds like a lot but it's not much when you consider that a mount could give you far more mobility than that, and it doesn't grant Pounce or anything.
    That seems...like a lot. A human engineer who takes machinist at level 7 and follows it all the way through will already a base speed of 65 feet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Another_Poet View Post
    Have you considered ways of interfacing the mecharmour with other class abilities? Your Engineer class makes clear that the mecharmour works as the base suit of armour, so it would carry spell failure chance and would prevent a scout from using their abilities. That's a shame - with the fast movement and special combat advantages, I would love to combine this suit with Scout for skirmish damage. Maybe there can be a Vocation to count the Mecharmour as light armour for purposes of class abilities (armoured mage, skirmish, etc.)? And how about an Vocation to simply reduce the spell failure of a mecharmr suit by x%?
    Why couldn't you combine it with the scout? Why not simply make a suit of mecharmor out of light armor? Making a suit of mecharmor gives you a +6 armor bonus with a -4 check penalty once you take Enhanced Performance. Heck, you can even make the armor masterwork or mithril. That's better than a breastplate, and you end up moving faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Another_Poet View Post
    Also, to me at least, mecharmour has much in common with a horse or other mount. Can you add a Vocation that allows the Machinist to count as mounted for purposes of Mounted Combat? Then the Machinist could use Rideby Attack and Spirited Charge if they have those feats, and could deal double damage when charging with a lance whether they have mounted combat feats or not. It would let you tap into a whole pile of existing mechanics, seems thematically appropriate and makes sense with the higher speed of these machines.

    (Note that I worded that very carefully, it allows "the Machinist to count as mounted for purposes of Mounted Combat" - it does not count the armour as a mount, which would cause rules problems.)
    No offense, but being mounted while actually not being mounted seems like a bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Another_Poet View Post
    Last, a question for you. Have you seen the Iron Kingdoms campaign setting? If so, what made you decide to homebrew these classes instead of using/adapting the IK equivalents? The Arcane Mechanik does the same thing as your Engineer, Warcaster does the same as your Machinist and characters of any class can purchase steam armour in the Iron Kingdoms which is more powerful than the mecharmour presented here. I don't fault anyone for deciding against using IK's large, bulky mechanika system, but it certainly is a modular system with a heck of a lot of options. So I'm just curious what, if anything, prompted you to make your own equivalent.
    Didn't know Iron Kingdoms had any classes like that, but you just answered your own question when you mentioned that the rules are complex.

    I've been unable to find a set of rules for making steam mechs that weren't woefully complex. So I made my own

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadEnded View Post
    As a fellow Techie in the playground, I really like what you have here. I can't really say more than the previous poster as he's covered all the bases I would have. A really good job on that review, by the by.
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadEnded View Post
    I'd really love is to use this as a PrC for my Clockworker base class. But my class doesn't give the very specific abilities (vocations) needed to take your PrC. It does give breakthroughs; granted it doesn't do the mecharmor, but it does do a number of very similar things.

    Any chance for a little rewording and the ability to pick up the kick ass armor at 1st level of the PrC?
    Unfortunatly, it's not gonna happen, only because there isn't a bunch of synergy outside of a Clockworker 3/Engineer 4 multiclass.

    But! I love your clockworker; when I get a free moment, I'll see about writing up a version that meshes with your class a bit better and send if to you. How's that sound?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadEnded View Post
    I'd hate to butt into your class here and ask for changes that wouldn't benefit anyone but me, but I think it would be really awesome to have a Clockwork Minion (golem) running around with you while you're jogging along in your steam powered armor.
    That's pretty much worth a class feature on its own, and I doubt I could do such a thing as well as the clockworker

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadEnded View Post
    P.S. I'll give you a cookie!
    Only gluten-free ones, though
    Last edited by Lappy9000; 2009-09-15 at 02:36 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Trodon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Limbo
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    This is amazing as well I'm going to try to use this prc with your base class if a dm allows it.
    My Homebrew Signiture.

    Thank you Serpentine for my amazing avatar!

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Trodon View Post
    This is amazing as well I'm going to try to use this prc with your base class if a dm allows it.
    Thanks again! Before you start making a build, wait a bit for this one to get some more critique. There'll also be a prestige class focused on psionics if'n that's your bag.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Another_Poet's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    New Orleans and abroad
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    With DeadEnded in mind, a suggestion: couldn't you have a "variant" Engineer who gains a Clockwork Golem companion in lieu of gaining Vocations? The Clockwork Golem would start off with stats comparable to a Lv1 Druid's Animal Companion, would scale with level like an Animal Companion, but would be clockwork themed.

    If this was offered, a Clockworker Variant Engineer who goes into the Machinist PrC would put all of his vocations onto his Clockwork Golem companion, which follows him, instead of on a suit of armour which he wears himself. I think literally all of the Machinist Vocations would be just as useful on a clockwork companion as on a PC.

    Just an idea.

    Regarding Scout and Machinist, what exactly is a suit of Light Mecharmour? I mean, I understand what you mean in rules terms - take a suit of Light Armour, and mech it out - but even the lightest such armour would be as heavy or heavier than Full Plate. And since Light armour generally isn't a full-body suit, some of the Vocations don't make sense anymore. Frankly, I can't see how mecharmour can qualify as Light armour, regardless of its max dex or its AC bonus.

    If I were you, I would make Mecharmour its own class of armour, which is heavier by weight than Heavy armour but alleviates some of the Heavy armour penalties by virtue of its machine-assisted movement. For a character to use "Light Armour Only" abilities in it should be a feat or a Vocation.
    Last edited by Another_Poet; 2009-09-15 at 10:05 PM.
    I just published my first novella, Lúnasa Days, a modern fantasy with a subtle, uncertain magic.

    You can grab it on Kindle or paperback.

    Proud to GM two Warhammer Adventures:


    Plays as Ulrich, Student of Law

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Another_Poet View Post
    With DeadEnded in mind, a suggestion: couldn't you have a "variant" Engineer who gains a Clockwork Golem companion in lieu of gaining Vocations? The Clockwork Golem would start off with stats comparable to a Lv1 Druid's Animal Companion, would scale with level like an Animal Companion, but would be clockwork themed.

    If this was offered, a Clockworker Variant Engineer who goes into the Machinist PrC would put all of his vocations onto his Clockwork Golem companion, which follows him, instead of on a suit of armour which he wears himself. I think literally all of the Machinist Vocations would be just as useful on a clockwork companion as on a PC.
    Looking at the clockworker class, that's pretty much exactly what you already do with the class. You beef up your little mechanical buddy. It could possibly go into the engineer, but I'd argue that it really doesn't fit here (and I've already vetoed a companion in the engineer class for a number of reasons)

    Quote Originally Posted by Another_Poet View Post
    Regarding Scout and Machinist, what exactly is a suit of Light Mecharmour? I mean, I understand what you mean in rules terms - take a suit of Light Armour, and mech it out - but even the lightest such armour would be as heavy or heavier than Full Plate. And since Light armour generally isn't a full-body suit, some of the Vocations don't make sense anymore. Frankly, I can't see how mecharmour can qualify as Light armour, regardless of its max dex or its AC bonus.
    To quote meself:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lappy9000 View Post
    A suit of mecharmor is essentially a modified version of normal armor, with the base armor material forming the outer shell of the suit that protects the wearer and the delicate machinery inside.
    Is it really so difficult to imagine a lightly-build steam enhancement suit with treated leather forming the guards of the suit? Or such a suit with tightened chain links protecting the wearer? Heck, make it a giant teddy bear robo-suit by using padded cloth armor. I'm not suggesting you make a robot out of a chain shirt; that's just silly OR IS IT?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Another_Poet View Post
    If I were you, I would make Mecharmour its own class of armour, which is heavier by weight than Heavy armour but alleviates some of the Heavy armour penalties by virtue of its machine-assisted movement. For a character to use "Light Armour Only" abilities in it should be a feat or a Vocation.
    Now, you see, that's just making things more complex and taking away from the player's options.

    Edit: Thanks for bring up the dex bonus, though. I had completely forgotten about that. It's fixed on both engineer posts now.
    Last edited by Lappy9000; 2009-09-16 at 11:04 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Another_Poet's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    New Orleans and abroad
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lappy9000 View Post
    To quote meself: Is it really so difficult to imagine a lightly-build steam enhancement suit with treated leather forming the guards of the suit? Or such a suit with tightened chain links protecting the wearer? Heck, make it a giant teddy bear robo-suit by using padded cloth armor. I'm not suggesting you make a robot out of a chain shirt; that's just silly
    No, it's not difficult to imagine at all. Leather or chain mail cladding on a delicate machine? Sure, sounds fine.

    What makes no sense, however, is that wearing a steam engine doesn't weigh you down, restrict your movements, and interfere with activities that are specifically called out as being impossible when wearing something heavy.

    Seriously, am I misunderstanding you, or are you truly saying that a mech suit clad with studded leather should not interfere with Skirmish or Armoured Mage, even though wearing a bear skin DOES interfere with them? Steam engine robo harness = less cumbersome than a bear skin??
    I just published my first novella, Lúnasa Days, a modern fantasy with a subtle, uncertain magic.

    You can grab it on Kindle or paperback.

    Proud to GM two Warhammer Adventures:


    Plays as Ulrich, Student of Law

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lappy9000 View Post
    Unfortunatly, it's not gonna happen, only because there isn't a bunch of synergy outside of a Clockworker 3/Engineer 4 multiclass.

    But! I love your clockworker; when I get a free moment, I'll see about writing up a version that meshes with your class a bit better and send if to you. How's that sound?

    That's pretty much worth a class feature on its own, and I doubt I could do such a thing as well as the clockworker

    Only gluten-free ones, though
    Sounds like Awesomesauce to me!

    I'll have to find a good recipe for gluten free cookies ... I tend to make the really decadent chocolate kind which uses flour.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Chocolate Chip good for you?

    Chocolate Chip Cookies (Gluten Free)
    * 3/4 cup butter, softened
    * 1 1/4 cups packed brown sugar
    * 1/4 cup white sugar
    * 1 teaspoon gluten-free vanilla extract
    * 1/4 cup egg substitute
    * 2 1/4 cups gluten-free baking mix
    * 1 teaspoon baking soda
    * 1 teaspoon baking powder
    * 1 teaspoon salt
    * 12 ounces semisweet chocolate chips

    DIRECTIONS

    1. Preheat oven to 375 degrees F ( 190 degrees C). Prepare a greased baking sheet.
    2. In a medium bowl, cream butter and sugar. Gradually add replacer eggs and vanilla while mixing. Sift together gluten- free flour mix, baking soda, baking powder, and salt. Stir into the butter mixture until blended. Finally, stir in the chocolate chips.
    3. Using a teaspoon, drop cookies 2 inches apart on prepared baking sheet. Bake in preheated oven for 6 to 8 minutes or until light brown. Let cookies cool on baking sheet for 2 minutes before removing to wire racks.

    Best I can do over the internet.
    Enjoy!

    DeadEnded~
    Last edited by DeadEnded; 2009-09-16 at 01:22 PM.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern.
    If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature (mine was on an hangman's platform)

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Another_Poet View Post
    No, it's not difficult to imagine at all. Leather or chain mail cladding on a delicate machine? Sure, sounds fine.

    What makes no sense, however, is that wearing a steam engine doesn't weigh you down, restrict your movements, and interfere with activities that are specifically called out as being impossible when wearing something heavy.

    Seriously, am I misunderstanding you, or are you truly saying that a mech suit clad with studded leather should not interfere with Skirmish or Armoured Mage, even though wearing a bear skin DOES interfere with them? Steam engine robo harness = less cumbersome than a bear skin??
    Where in the Nine Hells did you pull that from?

    Okay, lookit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lappy9000 View Post
    Mecharmor
    Prerequisite: -
    Description: You have created a suit of performance enhancing armor, most commonly referred to as mecharmor. While these suits are complex and exotic, it is important to remember that they are nothing more than advanced suits of armor and function as such. However, due to their unique designs and complexity, anyone other than the engineer who created the mecharmor takes a -8 penalty to attack rolls inside the suit and cannot benefit from any vocations with the mecharmor as a prerequisite. This penalty is in addition to penalties a character receives if they are not proficient with the armor that formed the base of the mecharmor.

    Activating (donning) a suit of mecharmor takes 1 minute. Once activated, the suit functions similarly to a suit of armor that grants its user special abilities. A suit of mecharmor is essentially a modified version of normal armor, with the base armor material forming the outer shell of the suit that protects the wearer and the delicate machinery inside. Mecharmor provides one and a half the armor bonus of the base armor (minimum 2), triples the armor check penalty (minimum -3), decreases the maximum dexterity bonus by -4 (minimum 0), as well as doubles the arcane spell failure chance and the weight of the armor. In addition, the suit provides the wearer with a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength whenever the wearer is using the suit.

    Constructing a suit of mecharmor requires the base cost of the armor, plus 500 gp and 1 week of work devoted solely to the mecharmor (Craft checks not required). Mecharmor comes with a set of gauntlets and can be modified with armor spikes or other additions just as normal armor.
    So, this means that you're getting armor that imposes triple the armor check penalty (double if you've taken the Ehnahced Performance vocation, which is necessary for this class) and significantly decreases how much you can benefit from Dexterity bonuses to your armor class. Yes, with certain vocations, if provided benefits that mechanically enhance speed and strength. Since the armor's doing the work for you, I don't see why you couldn't cast a spell if you're using Armored Mage. If you want to use hide armor to drape your mecharmor with bear's skin, more power to you, but last time I checked, bear's don't come with any mechanical equipment that can make you move more efficiently.

    ....Although I'm sure that there's a template for that somewhere
    Last edited by Lappy9000; 2009-09-16 at 02:19 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Another_Poet's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    New Orleans and abroad
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    Okay, that definitely helps, and I had not understood that before. My apologies.

    That said, let me give you an example.

    Mundane Hide armour counts as Medium armour. It weighs 25 lbs, has a check penalty of -3, max dex of +4 and 20% spell failure chance.

    One suit of Mechanical Armour based on a Chain Shirt counts as Light armour. It weighs 50 lbs (mech armour does not increase the weight??), has a check penalty of -6, max dex of 0, and 40% spell failure chance. I have highlighted in red the stats that are more restrictive than the Hide armour.

    According to your rules, a Scout who cannot deal skirmish damage in the Hide Armour can still deal skirmish damage in the Mech Armr, even though it is more restrictive.

    A Duskblade who has Armoured Mage (Light) may lose spells while wearing the Hide Armour, but can ignore spell failure in the Mech Armr.

    Do you see what I mean? This is counterintuitive, hard to believe and potentially open to cheese.

    ap
    Last edited by Another_Poet; 2009-09-16 at 04:29 PM.
    I just published my first novella, Lúnasa Days, a modern fantasy with a subtle, uncertain magic.

    You can grab it on Kindle or paperback.

    Proud to GM two Warhammer Adventures:


    Plays as Ulrich, Student of Law

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Another_Poet View Post
    (mech armour does not increase the weight??)
    Please look over the bolded part of the mecharmor quote in my last post again. End of the sentence

    Quote Originally Posted by Another_Poet View Post
    According to your rules, a Scout who cannot deal skirmish damage in the Hide Armour can still deal skirmish damage in the Mech Armr, even though it is more restrictive.
    You do realize that skirmish is the one scout ability that isn't affected by medium or heavy armor, right? Next time you wanna make a point, please, please make it clearer.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Another_Poet's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    New Orleans and abroad
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    Alright, I've amended my post above. You're right, the mech armour is bulkier and more cumbersome in four ways, not three, than Hide armour: ACP, ASF, max Dex, and weight. This makes it all the stranger that it can still count as Light armour.

    Forgive me for misremembering the Scout class features. I've reread it and let me rephrase my criticism as follows:

    A Scout who cannot Hide in Plain Sight while wrapped in bear fur, because it is too bulky, can Hide in Plain Sight while wearing a metal-clad machine. Even though the machine imposes twice as much of a penalty on the Hide skill. What gives?

    A Scout who cannot use his class Fast Movement ability while wrapped in 25 lbs. of bear fur, can use Fast Movement while harnessed into 50 lbs. of machinery. Moreover, his own Fast Movement (untyped increase) stacks with the machine's powered movement (enhancement bonus) so that he actually moves faster in it. Your argument for this was that "the suit is doing the work" so it makes sense. But then why does he lose this ability in a suit covered with bear hide?

    And, going back to Armoured Mage, a Duskblade who loses 1 in 5 spells while wearing a bear hide never loses any spells while wearing machinery. This despite the 40% spell failure rate on the machine. The reason you offered was the "the machine does the work" but, again, why does the machine become unable to do the work for him when it has bear skin, rather than metal links, on its outer shell? And do you really want to set the precedent that the machine can complete the somatic components of spells for wearer?

    You seem annoyed by my questioning this mechanic. I'm really not trying to be insulting or overly critical here - I'm seeing a potentially big problem with the rule as you wrote it, the clarification you've offered has not resolved that problem, and I assume the reason you posted this was so others could help find & fix such problems. Well, this one needs fixing.

    At the most basic level, the Mech Armour is a suit which has all the stats and characteristics of Medium or heavier armour, even if based on Light armour. That means there's at least a head scratch involved, since it is hard to explain without phlebotinum. For a more serious problem, consider the following:

    A Beguiler loots a suit of Light Mech Armour off a dead Machinist. Or, buys one. Or the party Machinist gives it to him. He now has its full bonus to AC, with no spell failure at all, and the only penalty he takes is "a -8 penalty to attack rolls inside the suit and cannot benefit from any vocations with the mecharmor as a prerequisite." (If you're stacking this with the ACP it's -14 in this case.) But he doesn't make attack rolls, period. He doesn't know any Vocations. So, he takes no penalties while wearing the suit, except the suit's max Dex and ACP.

    Do you see the problem here?
    I just published my first novella, Lúnasa Days, a modern fantasy with a subtle, uncertain magic.

    You can grab it on Kindle or paperback.

    Proud to GM two Warhammer Adventures:


    Plays as Ulrich, Student of Law

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Another_Poet View Post
    You seem annoyed by my questioning this mechanic. I'm really not trying to be insulting or overly critical here - I'm seeing a potentially big problem with the rule as you wrote it, the clarification you've offered has not resolved that problem, and I assume the reason you posted this was so others could help find & fix such problems.
    No, I'm extremely annoyed, because majority of the problems you keep bringing up have already been addressed in the original post. Not including the fact that they were muddled up in a big post where your point wasn't clear.

    Here is the new-and improved mecharmor to avoid any future confusion:

    Spoiler
    Show
    Mecharmor
    Prerequisite: -
    Description: You have created a suit of performance enhancing armor, most commonly referred to as mecharmor. While these suits are complex and exotic, it is important to remember that they are nothing more than advanced suits of armor and function as such. However, due to their unique designs and complexity, anyone other than the engineer who created the mecharmor takes a -8 penalty to attack rolls inside the suit and cannot benefit from any vocations with the mecharmor as a prerequisite. This penalty is in addition to penalties a character receives if they are not proficient with the armor that formed the base of the mecharmor.

    Activating (donning) a suit of mecharmor takes 1 minute. Once activated, the suit functions similarly to a suit of armor that grants its user special abilities. A suit of mecharmor is essentially a modified version of normal armor, with the base armor material forming the outer shell of the suit that protects the wearer and the delicate machinery inside. Mecharmor provides one and a half the armor bonus of the base armor (minimum 2), triples the armor check penalty (minimum -3), decreases the maximum dexterity bonus by -4 (minimum 0), as well as doubles the arcane spell failure chance and the weight of the armor. In addition, the suit provides the wearer with a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength whenever the wearer is using the suit. Mecharmor always counts as medium or heavier armor for abilities that rely on the character wearing light or no armor, regardless of the base armor type.*

    Constructing a suit of mecharmor requires the base cost of the armor, plus 500 gp and 1 week of work devoted solely to the mecharmor (Craft checks not required). Mecharmor comes with a set of gauntlets and can be modified with armor spikes or other additions just as normal armor.

    * I've added in a clause that the mecharmor always counts as heavier than light armor for class abilities like Armored Mage. I have no problem with your critique. My problem is that you could have said, "Hey, the mecharmor shouldn't apply to abilities that hinge on minimal armor use," instead of some junk about bear skin.

    Just said what needs to be said and no more next time, k?
    Last edited by Lappy9000; 2009-09-16 at 05:27 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Another_Poet's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    New Orleans and abroad
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    Good fix. Simple.

    Sorry if I was so confusing. I tend to err on the side of more detail rather than less detail. My Scout fumble didn't help either. For what it's worth, I do like the class.

    Also, another thought did occur to me. There should be a feat or maybe a UMD check that allows a non-Machinist to wear the armour without the -8 penalty.

    Last, I did think of another alternative to "Vocations" if you have any interest: Upgrades. Alternately, Breakthroughs.

    ap
    Last edited by Another_Poet; 2009-09-16 at 09:29 PM.
    I just published my first novella, Lúnasa Days, a modern fantasy with a subtle, uncertain magic.

    You can grab it on Kindle or paperback.

    Proud to GM two Warhammer Adventures:


    Plays as Ulrich, Student of Law

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007

    Default Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    Perhaps, "Programs" Shadowrun Hacker style?

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Dragon Elite's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Post Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    This is awesome. Seriously. Fun, funny, balanced, cool.
    -- The Dragon
    Spoiler
    Show
    Avatar by Telasi

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lappy9000 View Post
    If you want to use hide armor to drape your mecharmor with bear's skin, more power to you, but last time I checked, bear's don't come with any mechanical equipment that can make you move more efficiently.
    http://drmcninja.com/page.php?pageNum=3&issue=9
    http://drmcninja.com/page.php?pageNum=4&issue=9
    http://drmcninja.com/page.php?pageNum=5&issue=9

    Thought you might enjoy those.
    DE~
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern.
    If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature (mine was on an hangman's platform)

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon Elite View Post
    This is awesome. Seriously. Fun, funny, balanced, cool.
    Many thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadEnded View Post
    AwesomeMcNinja
    I knew there was a template for it somewhere!
    Last edited by Lappy9000; 2009-09-17 at 11:53 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    May 2010

    Default Re: Advanced Critique: The Machinist PrC [3.5]

    I love the idea of both classes. BUT i think for me to want to play it you would need to bump up the options alot. I would suggest REALLLY fleshing out the three main paths and giving each path subsets.

    Which boils down to time. Which if wanted to play something like this in a game i would invest with my GM to make feats and alter the class to what i want.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •