[4e] Multiclassing

[LibraryOgre]

I'm almost positive I've asked this before. With the recovery of my bard, it's of less importance, but here it is: If you have, say, the multiclass fighter feat Student of the Sword, can you also take Battle Awareness, which is also a multiclass fighter feat (even if one is not a bard)? I would assume so, but wasn't sure.

[TheOOB]

PHB pg 208

"First, you can’t take a
multiclass feat for your own class. Second, once you
take a multiclass feat, you can’t take a class-specific
feat for a different class. You can dabble in a second
class but not a third."

According to a literal reading of the rules, you can take as many multiclass feats as you want, as long as they are all from the same class(that is not also your main class). The rules do not prohibit it.

[Grynning]

PHB pg 208

"First, you can’t take a
multiclass feat for your own class. Second, once you
take a multiclass feat, you can’t take a class-specific
feat for a different class. You can dabble in a second
class but not a third."

According to a literal reading of the rules, you can take as many multiclass feats as you want, as long as they are all from the same class(that is not also your main class). The rules do not prohibit it.

Once you take the first multiclass feat, you are considered to be a member of that class. I think that would technically mean that no, you couldn't take more than one "entry level" mc feat.

[NPCMook]

I'm almost positive I've asked this before. With the recovery of my bard, it's of less importance, but here it is: If you have, say, the multiclass fighter feat Student of the Sword, can you also take Battle Awareness, which is also a multiclass fighter feat (even if one is not a bard)? I would assume so, but wasn't sure.

According the Character builder yes, you can take all the Multiclass feats of the class you multiclass into.

[TheOOB]

According the Character builder yes, you can take all the Multiclass feats of the class you multiclass into.

The character builder is not RAW. It has been wrong before, and is an unreliable way to check the rules of the game

Once you take the first multiclass feat, you are considered to be a member of that class. I think that would technically mean that no, you couldn't take more than one "entry level" mc feat.

PHB, same page "A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass
feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of
meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying
for paragon paths."

The class you took a multiclass feat for is not your class, you just can take feats and paragon paths that have that class as a prerequisite. If what you said was true taking a multiclass feat could create an endless illogical loop where you can't qualify for a feat because you have it.

So in short, as spelled out by the PHB, there are two restrictions on multiclass feats(other than the ones possessed by feats in general), 1) You cannot take a multiclass feat for your class(and you have only one class), and 2) you can only take multiclass feats for one class. Unless there is an errata or more recent rulebook entry stateing otherwise, you can take multiple multiclass feats from the same class.

[Kurald Galain]

PHB, same page "A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass
feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of
meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying
for paragon paths."

Yes, but this has been updated as to mean that you also count as a member of that class regarding any other question of whether you can take item X, feat Y, power Z, and so forth. So it is a valid interpretation that, after taking student of the sword, you are now considered a fighter with respect to feats, and thus cannot take battle awareness.

So that makes it a DM's call. The most relevant question, imho, then becomes "would it be overpowered to let a character take both", to which the answer is rather obviously "no".

[Pramxnim]

Actually, I believe you can take multiple multiclass feats that pertain to the same class. I'd like to demonstrate this with the existence of the feat Battle Acumens from Martial power. It is a multiclass feat that requires you to have another multiclass fighter feat and paragon multiclassing as a fighter.

The argument that you are already a member of the fighter class so you cannot take another multiclass fighter feat becomes moot since if it were valid, it would instead invalidate an official feat (Battle Acumens).

[TheOOB]

Yes, but this has been updated as to mean that you also count as a member of that class regarding any other question of whether you can take item X, feat Y, power Z, and so forth. So it is a valid interpretation that, after taking student of the sword, you are now considered a fighter with respect to feats, and thus cannot take battle awareness.

So that makes it a DM's call. The most relevant question, imho, then becomes "would it be overpowered to let a character take both", to which the answer is rather obviously "no".

Do you happen to know where any errata or rules text is that changes the function of multiclass feats to something other than what is written in the PHB?

[Kurald Galain]

Do you happen to know where any errata or rules text is that changes the function of multiclass feats to something other than what is written in the PHB?

PHB2, page 196.

[The_Pyre]

Related to the Character Builder post above:

I picked up Hero of Faith with one character and took up the Channel Divinity multiclass feat for Avengers (which was available). The CharBuilder promptly changed my character status to Homebrew.

I suppose this would be the same result for all the other classes, and it seems to support Kurald's interpretation.

Still, I would allow a player to do that. It just makes more sense that way. I mean, how should being more fighter-like prevent you from becoming even more fighter-like?

[Tyrrell]

There are multiclass feats that require another multiclass feat as a prerequisite. this alone should answer the question without kabbalistic parsing go the text.

[Blackfang108]

There are multiclass feats that require another multiclass feat as a prerequisite. this alone should answer the question without kabbalistic parsing go the text.

Yes, but those are a "specific trumps general" case.

[Kurald Galain]

There are multiclass feats that require another multiclass feat as a prerequisite. this alone should answer the question without kabbalistic parsing go the text.

Fatality!

[Sinfire Titan]

There are multiclass feats that require another multiclass feat as a prerequisite. this alone should answer the question without kabbalistic parsing go the text.

I cite the bard as the reason for those feats existing.

[Mando Knight]

I cite the bard as the reason for those feats existing.

Martial Power was released six months before PHB2.

[Sinfire Titan]

Martial Power was released six months before PHB2.

Right. Then the Devs are at fault (again).

[Yakk]

Having a multiclass feat does not make you a member of that class.

It lets you meet feat prerequisites (which are the little Prerequisite: $Class field), and qualify for paragon paths.

You can use the cognitive shortcut that you "are a member of the class", but that is only true for a pair of narrow situations.

This is also backed up by it being unreasonable for the alternative to be true:
The multiclass feats that require other multiclass feats (including every single paragon multiclassing feat) are not intended to be bard-only features.

[Sinfire Titan]

Having a multiclass feat does not make you a member of that class.

It lets you meet feat prerequisites (which are the little Prerequisite: $Class field), and qualify for paragon paths.

You can use the cognitive shortcut that you "are a member of the class", but that is only true for a pair of narrow situations.

This is also backed up by it being unreasonable for the alternative to be true:
The multiclass feats that require other multiclass feats (including every single paragon multiclassing feat) are not intended to be bard-only features.

"A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass
feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of
meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying
for paragon paths."

I'd say counting as a member of the class means you are a member of the class.

I believe the rule regarding multiclass feats is a mistype, as they didn't do their own research which prompted the creation of more multiclass feats (for example, the fact that a PH1 character who multiclassed into Ranger could never qualify for a Ranger Paragon Path due to entry requirements).

They just never remembered to alter the rules to match the changes made.

[Tiki Snakes]

Yes, if you take the multiclass feat you are now a member of that class. That is why things intended for 'real' members of the class almost always list a class feature as a prerequisite in addition.

I'd personally say that there's nothing really terrible in allowing people to take further multiclass feats for their existing multiclass class, but it does seem to be a house-rule at this point, technically, give or take bards and whether or not the Character Builder has it backwards.

[edit] I'm pretty sure that at least one dev has pretty much spelled out that 'RAI' does include the idea that if fudging a rule makes a pc a little cooler or increases people's enjoyment, you are very much encouraged to do so.
So, perhaps not RAW, but tenouously almost kind of RAI? :)

[Mando Knight]

Related to the Character Builder post above:

I picked up Hero of Faith with one character and took up the Channel Divinity multiclass feat for Avengers (which was available). The CharBuilder promptly changed my character status to Homebrew.

I could not reproduce this problem.

Example character used to test: (items, rituals not chosen)

Spoiler

Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 4
Dwarf, Invoker
Divine Covenant: Covenant of Wrath

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 17, Dex 10, Int 14, Wis 19, Cha 13.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 13.


AC: 14 Fort: 16 Reflex: 15 Will: 17
HP: 39 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 9

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +9, Insight +11, Endurance +12, Arcana +9, Stealth +7

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Bluff +3, Diplomacy +3, Dungeoneering +8, Heal +6, History +4, Intimidate +3, Nature +6, Perception +6, Streetwise +3, Thievery +2, Athletics +1

FEATS
Invoker: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Hero of Faith
Level 2: Divine Channeler (Avenger)
Level 4: Invoker Defense

POWERS
Divine Channeler (Avenger): Divine Guidance
Invoker at-will 1: Divine Bolts
Invoker at-will 1: Avenging Light
Invoker encounter 1: Lightning's Revelation
Invoker daily 1: Summon Angel of Fire
Invoker utility 2: Divine Call
Invoker encounter 3: Glyph of Imprisonment

ITEMS
Ritual Book
RITUALS
Hand of Fate
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

[TheOOB]

Yes, if you take the multiclass feat you are now a member of that class.

But that is completely wrong. No where in the rules does it say you are a member of the new class, you simply count as a member of the class for the purposes of meeting prerequisites. Counting as the class for specific purposes and being the class are two different things. You can't just assume one is true because the other is true. Barring Dual Class nonesense(coming out in the PHBIII), a character has one, and only one class, and as a such the rules regarding multiclass feats are fairly solid in their logic. There is no limit to the number of mulitclass feats you can take, as long as you are only taking feats from one class, and that class is not your own.

The addition of multiclass feats that require other multiclass feats, while not additional proof that multiclass feats are allowed, is proof that the rules are intended for you to have multiple multiclass feats. If that wasn't the case then the feats would be impossible to take, because no where in the feat description does it mention any exception to the rules.

You as a DM under rule 0 powers are allowed to make it so character can only have one multiclass feat, just remember that it is a houserule, and that according to RAW you can take as many as you want as long as you meet the two conditions stipulated in the PHB.

[Tiki Snakes]

But that is completely wrong. No where in the rules does it say you are a member of the new class, you simply count as a member of the class for the purposes of meeting prerequisites. Counting as the class for specific purposes and being the class are two different things. You can't just assume one is true because the other is true. Barring Dual Class nonesense(coming out in the PHBIII), a character has one, and only one class, and as a such the rules regarding multiclass feats are fairly solid in their logic. There is no limit to the number of mulitclass feats you can take, as long as you are only taking feats from one class, and that class is not your own.

The addition of multiclass feats that require other multiclass feats, while not additional proof that multiclass feats are allowed, is proof that the rules are intended for you to have multiple multiclass feats. If that wasn't the case then the feats would be impossible to take, because no where in the feat description does it mention any exception to the rules.

You as a DM under rule 0 powers are allowed to make it so character can only have one multiclass feat, just remember that it is a houserule, and that according to RAW you can take as many as you want as long as you meet the two conditions stipulated in the PHB.

I don't have the time to go scrabbling to check, right now, but might later. Essentially, I was at the time of posting pretty sure that it said somewhere that if you multiclassed, you were both classes. Nuff said.

This also ties in with the concept of pre-requisits including primary-class-specific gubbins, and so on. Such as 'Prerequisit; Rogue, Sneak Attack Class Feature' or so on.

Given the wording reproduced above, ie; Count as an X for the purposes of prerequisite of feats and etc, doesn't that alone rule out multiple multiclasses? Because not Being a Fighter IS a prerequisit of taking most Fighter Multiclass feats, unless you are a bard (on account of the specific exception)?

Admittedly, I am not 100% sure, and would likely rule as you believe anyway, in my own games, (homerule or not).

[Yakk]

I'd say counting as a member of the class means you are a member of the class.

I'd say you owe me 100$.

I suspect we are both wrong in the above statements.

You count as the member of the class for two very specific purposes. This does not mean you are member of the class.

You count as a member of the class to meet prerequisites. First, prerequisite is a key word in feat descriptions. Second, you count in order to meet a prerequisite. Either makes the multiclass (as written) rules not rule out taking a second multiclass feat for the same class, as written. You can interpret it more broadly (and it is very intuitive to take it as "you are a member of the class for purpose X and purpose Y", which works as a model relatively well, but isn't actually what it says) if you choose. I'll admit it is a pretty talmudic difference.

To determine if this RAW reading is what is intended, we then look at other rules, and note that there are multiclass feats that when published, can only be taken if it is possible to take more than one multiclass feat from the same class, including entire categories of such feats.

We can also note that the character builder allows you to pick more than one multiclass feat from the same class (in some patches, it generates a houserule flag I'll admit). This is also evidence that it is intended that you can take more than one multiclass feat.

All of this, of course, ends up being overcome by common sense and the rule of cool. The reading that "you can only ever take 1 multiclass feat, ever" doesn't match the sniff test -- there are a myriad collection of multiclass feats that are impossible to take under that rule unless you are a bard.

And that would be dumb, considering many of them where published pre-bard.

There are other reasons why it makes sense, but I'm tired of this discussion. :)