How much do you see?

[oxinabox]

Ok one of my DM's really weird about handing out information.
We were fighting monsters, an no magic was working on them.
inc magic weapons
eventually one of us asked him to describe them in detail
and he says "Each one is a different color..."
An we all goan, clearly the coulour says wich element thry are protrected from/vunerable too.
but since none of un asked "hey what colour are the monsters?" we didn't pick up on it.
We I say "Surely we should be informed of anything relevant to the combat like that? can't we see?"
He provide the couter example:
DM:"Ahead of you is a black pudding ooze, behind it is your goal"
ME: I fly over it
DM: You can't fly
ME: I burrow under it
DM: you can't burrow
ME: I shoot at it
DM: you have no weapons
ME: I give up and go home
DM: You walk arround it.
ME: Why didn't you day it didn't block the whole path?
DM: Why didn't you ask?

this same DM has blocked us with a locked sliding rock door, that we couldn't open.
So I cut through it.
turns out there was a button next to it, but "we didn't ask"

His faverate puzzle of all time involved a gem that was stuck to an alter.
the Dwarf fighter tried to pull it out
insibed on the alter, on thew far side (we walked around it to see it)
was "Strength is not the way"
We then Puzzle for ages, the Psion tried to life it with telekinesis.
And we try smashign the alter and a stack of things
we're like "there was writting on the other side? why didn't we notice?"
DM: "You didn't ask"
So we read it: "Intelligence is not the answer" (this is readily aprrent by now)
Some one tried to convice with diplomacy the gem to come with us.
the dm say "read the other side"
| it says "Talking is not the path"
We ask "is there writing on the the other side"
DM: "Why Yes, it says: look behind you."
we look beind us.
DM: "You see a button on the wall"
*groan*

So many situations are like those bad riddles where you have to get the exact answer the DM wanted.

does he actually want me to waste time interrogating his every description?

[Mongoose87]

This is why the party rogue should do a search check at all puzzles. The ooze thing is a bit ridiculous, though.

[Kosjsjach]

I think I would go insane.

You could try indulging him for a session. Ask about everything. Incessantly. Everything. Ask until he's sick of you asking. And then ask some more.

If all goes well, this'll solve your problem.

[HealthKit]

I think I would go insane.

You could try indulging him for a session. Ask about everything. Incessantly. Everything. Ask until he's sick of you asking. And then ask some more.

If all goes well, this'll solve your problem.

Ah yes, revenge is a dish best served cold.

[BobVosh]

I think I would go insane.

You could try indulging him for a session. Ask about everything. Incessantly. Everything. Ask until he's sick of you asking. And then ask some more.

If all goes well, this'll solve your problem.

And thus The Treaty is born.

[Eldariel]

Honestly, make sure he understands what he's getting into. Make absolutely certain he realizes what kind of hell he's bringing upon himself. Then, every single time anything happens in-game, ask every question imaginable and few others out of principle.

Generate a list of all possible features an object may have and all factors an environment may contain, relevant or not. Don't forget to check the air humidity, any possible unusual smells or sensations, every single crack and deformity in solid surface available, the weight of the air, the material, construction style & possible bonding agents, the general mood of the locale and the shade of the air, all light sources around, and any ambient sounds along with their most likely sources. And that's only getting started.

After one session of this, ask if the DM likes how this game is going. If yes, continue as such until he realizes there are better ways to game. If no, explain to him that it's his job to give sufficient description of the environment for the players to be able to imagine exactly what their characters sense and see and that this is a result of him skimping on his duties in this regard.


That is what I would do if I ever encountered a DM incapable of sufficient description and causing problems in encounters specifically because of relevant pieces of information that were omitted for reasons no other than DM carelessness; things the characters sense automatically such as the stupid ****ing pudding not blocking the whole corridor or the monsters being color coded.

[SparkMandriller]

Just interrupt him every five seconds to let him know your character's still breathing. He should get the hint.


This may have the unfortunate side effect of causing him to find ways to stop your character breathing, though.

[oxinabox]

I had considered that approach however, i'm known for being very loud (i get caught up in the moment ).
and party members already joke about casting silence on me.
I also ask what things smell like all the time, since my character has scent.

Has anyone encountered a dm doing similar things?

[Kaun]

Every time you are faced with an issue state something along the lines of" My Character starts slowly and methodically inspecting every square inch of the area around him, please describes in grate detail what he see's hears, smells tastes and feels."

[Mystic Muse]

look in my signature and you'll see the solution to every annoying problem.

but seriously. Tell the DM he's being a jerk and ask why you need to ask every time when your characters should see it.

unless your characters have an ABYSMAL spot check.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Lol...
I got to ask did this guy come from 2nd ed/ older editions my old 2nd ed dm was like this.

Though he would give us a leg up a bit more then it sound lieks ur gm. Using your pudding example(seeing as i had a similar issue) When we entered the dungion the gm said that the main hall was 10 feat wide.
Time passed we had some combat and some other things...
then we get to this pudding and we get stuff on how to pass it for like 20 minutes.. his description was as follows.
"A 5 foot Pudding sits in the middle of the hall way. It bubbles every once and a while. The door is on 5ft away on its far side."

Finaly I was like is there enough space to tip toe around it. Hes like ya theres about 2.5 feet and we all groaned.
I loved that GM actualy made you think... (where both engineers though I don't know if that makes a difference)

[Kurald Galain]

Ok one of my DM's really weird about handing out information.

Yeah, this is just plain old bad DM'ing (worse, it's not bad DM'ing because the DM is simply not good at it, it is bad DM'ing because the DM is intentionally and deliberately being obnoxious to his players).

DM: "Player X, you take damage."
X: "Why?"
DM: "Because you're being attacked by a dragon."
X: "Why didn't you say there was a dragon in the room?"
DM: "You didn't ask."

[Farlion]

My players always seem to ask the right questions... maybe you should start saying things like:

I inspect the whole altar

I carefully look at all the walls and the ceiling in the room

Please list all the furniture/items/statues in the room


I have a classical example of a scene, where I don't mention a specific item, until someone asks for it:

The classical rug on the floor with the hidden trapdoor under it.

If I mention the rug, everyone will look under it and the whole trapdoor thing is a waste. On the other hand, if I describe a whole room with alot of furniture and all, then I somewhat expect my players to ask me, if there is a rug.

In this very case, I only mention the rug, if asked for.


Moreover, I also consider the state the characters are in, when I describe a room.

Example: If there is a huge Barghest in the middle of the room, my description of the hangings on the wall is somehow obsolete. On the other hand, once tha Barghest is dead, I will describe the rest of the room in some more detail.

So, your DM seems to like withholding information to make you look like a fool. He will someday get over it and start working WITH his players not AGAINST his players.

My tips: Be patient, ask the right questions or simply DM yourself

Cheers,
Farlion

[Calmar]

This dumbnut DM apparently forces his players to play their characters as if they were blind, or too damn dumb to concentrate on more than one thing at the same time.
Why are you still in his retarded game?

[daggaz]

lol, your dm has much to learn. Eldariel has the answer, tho to be honest I woulda walked out of such a game as soon as I heard that the monsters were color coded. The brainless machinations of the DM only spice the stupid-cake.

Honestly.. does your character asphyxiate because you forgot to tell the DM that you are breathing? Even worse, do you have to let him know for each and every single breath you take??

I feel for ya, man. Maybe you should pick up the gauntlet and try DMing instead?

[Vizzerdrix]

DM is being a douche bag and obviously wants to play 20 questions, not D&D.

[Sipex]

Some cases I agree with, like the altar puzzle forcing you to check it for inscriptions although depending on how you word your search (ie: I check the alter for inscriptions) he should tell you all the inscriptions or just one.

For the others, that's just annoying. Point out to him that your characters should have the ability to see what's in front of them and propose a 'passive perception check'. IE: What you naturally hear/see/smell/feel without rolling.

4e does this where you add 10 to perception (average die roll) and that determines how observant you are when you're just relaxing/browsing/casual.

3.5 might be a bit stricter than that for the DCs of seeing things so that might not work but a passive spot check of your skill's base score should at least grant you a description of everything a normal person should notice without trying. (unless your natural score is somehow negative)

[daggaz]

there already is a passive spot and listen mechanic in 3.5, and it is there to notice things that arent readily and immediately noticeable (a crack in the wall, a spider sneaking up in the dark, a child whimpering down the hall, etc.) Anything that is obviously noticeable* is up to the DM to describe it regardless of whether the PC's mention it. I dont have my DMG on me, but I would swear by all that is good and green on the earth, that that is specifically outlined within.

*things on the ceiling is one of the times where the two areas come close to eachother. If its dark or the ceiling is rough etc, then you had better announce you are looking up as well, or you could forgo your passive spot check. You dont have eyes on the top of your head. Otherwise its generally considered that a PC does swivel their head, even glancing behind them from time to time, allowing for passive spots in a 360 degree circle around them.. The worst I would do to PC's who dont mention looking behind them AND are suitably distracted, would be to give a penalty to the passive spot check, not remove it entirely.

[kamikasei]

I have a classical example of a scene, where I don't mention a specific item, until someone asks for it:

The classical rug on the floor with the hidden trapdoor under it.

If I mention the rug, everyone will look under it and the whole trapdoor thing is a waste. On the other hand, if I describe a whole room with alot of furniture and all, then I somewhat expect my players to ask me, if there is a rug.

In this very case, I only mention the rug, if asked for.

I am put in mind of this article of the Giant's. Summary: give enough detail that the players won't immediately latch on to the one thing you do mention about a room's contents as obviously being the key to whatever is to be done there.

If your players will search under every rug they come across, then let them find their trapdoors. Its their characters' precious time they're wasting.

[Kurald Galain]

*things on the ceiling is one of the times where the two areas come close to eachother. If its dark or the ceiling is rough etc, then you had better announce you are looking up as well, or you could forgo your passive spot check.

No: having a good passive spot check means that your character also looks up. That's why the skill exists, so good perception is based on your character build, rather than on how many times you say "I look there as well" as a player.

[Person_Man]

Sounds like your DM played too much Zork as a kid.

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

[bosssmiley]

@oxinabox: Tell your DM, from us, that he fails.

The DM is the player's only source of information about the game world. It is he who, by detailed description, or by omission of information, directs what the players focus their attention upon. Treating information about the PC's environs as a rare and precious resource that has to be winkled out text adventure-style is a fine example of DM suck and fail. The environment is constantly giving you information (some useful, some extraneous); the DM should do likewise.

If something is in plain sight, it should be mentioned.
If something is hidden, there should be clues.

[The Mentalist]

I always thought the answer was to go to an in-game library and ask what was on every page of every book you examined, what the bindings were, what the pages were made of, how they smelled, did any of them have stains on them, and then pass it off as "trying to get deeper into character" as a 6 Int Barbarian.

[oxinabox]

simply DM yourself

I am DMing another game (I was dming a couple). this is the only dnd 3.5 game i get to play in.
He's a friend,
i think he's been dming longer than me, i'm really not sure. i think i'm more experienced, I make mistakes (as a DM rp being of perfect truth, broke me last sesson, playing with PC's who were conartists)
He thinks he knows the rules, but often get them wrong,
but he's a good guy.
He admits he'ld rather play than dm, but he's happily dmed us a game all year.


My character Flies (all the time, that's what Fell Flight is for)
when in a dungeon, have been explictily told that must ask the hight of the room at a regular interval.
this was after the following happened:
we enter the dungeon, I ask how highs the roof.
DM: 10 ft,
ME: I fly as far up as i can.
DM: you get about 3.5 feat off the ground, not enough to save you form any enemies
ME: but at least it's engough that i won't set of any floor traps.
... (Game continues)
We get attacked (by the coulour coded monsters)
DM: it reaches out for you, its body seems to streatch, make a fort save (i roll, poorly) You go unconscious but take 0 damage.
CLERIC: rolls knowege check to work out what spell would heal me, and finds that it's beyond her abilities.
... (game continues)- DM, just says, after 10 or so round of combat, more come, until you fail to kill them and your all unconscious...

We find out the room where i was knocked unconscious, was 50 ft high.
so i should have been out of there range, but "I didn't ask how hight the roof was."




of topic
Does anyone know what (inc epic lvl) can make you go unconcios at 99 HP, deal 0 damage and can't be fixed with Heal, or Restoration?
Maybe it's DM fiat

[Calmar]

of topic
Does anyone know what (inc epic lvl) can make you go unconcios at 99 HP, deal 0 damage and can't be fixed with Heal, or Restoration?
Maybe it's DM fiat

A not-so-clever device to capture your group?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Make a checklist of generally asked questions, and some completely pointless ones, print off a few copies, and hand one to the DM every 5 minutes.

If you run out of ink, just read it aloud every 5 minutes. Rotate the sheet around to your fellow players if you get tired.

In the Senate, they call it a filibuster.

[Mongoose87]

I wouldn't be able to play under those conditions, myself. I'm surprised you haven't quit.

[HealthKit]

Well, if I were in this situation I would straight up tell the DM that what he's doing is annoying and making the game less enjoyable.
Explain this to him and ask him to stop. He should if he's really a friend. If he doesn't... well, he's not a very good friend.

[Vizzerdrix]

of topic
Does anyone know what (inc epic lvl) can make you go unconcios at 99 HP, deal 0 damage and can't be fixed with Heal, or Restoration?
Maybe it's DM fiat

Stat Damage. I'll bet cake on it.

Also Person Man, you reminded me of this ^_^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iInGhnpWe4o


Yay Zork!

[jiriku]

I also did this sort of thing when I was a (very) new DM. I grew out of it when I realized it wasn't fun. (And when my players began to purchase and use white-tipped canes in the dungeon. Tap, tap, tap.)

I currently play in a group where the DM roleplays all NPCs traveling with us as completely passive and unreactive. NPCs take no action unless we explicitly ask them too, even when directly threatened in combat. Even when given instructions, they obey literally and uncreatively, and stop acting as soon as their instructions are completed. We never see anything going on unless we specifically ask to make Spot checks, and he forces us to make Spot checks even for thunderously obvious things, like seeing one another approaching in the open on a paved road, or observing that a party member in the same room has just fallen.

Meh. Not everyone can be a brilliant DM.

If he's interested, point your DM towards some web resources (like Rich Burlew's article on descriptive storytelling) to help him sharpen his game. If he's not receptive, just remind yourself, "I get to play D&D tonight, how cool is that?"