AD&D 2nd Ed Necromancer

[klemdakherzbag]

So we decided to bring back the classic 2nd Ed for a spin again and I am looking at building a human thief/necromancer. Question is, using The Complete Book of Necromancers should I go with a cleric or wizard necro? Cleric-Necro/Thief would allow for better hp and general survivability, not to mention being able to command undead. With the Wizard-Necro/Thief, I am imagining being able to go invisible + massive backstab bonus, in addition to the general wizard spells.

I know very few of the posts here deal with 2Ed, but any help or suggestions are appreciated.

[RagnaroksChosen]

So we decided to bring back the classic 2nd Ed for a spin again and I am looking at building a human thief/necromancer. Question is, using The Complete Book of Necromancers should I go with a cleric or wizard necro? Cleric-Necro/Thief would allow for better hp and general survivability, not to mention being able to command undead. With the Wizard-Necro/Thief, I am imagining being able to go invisible + massive backstab bonus, in addition to the general wizard spells.

I know very few of the posts here deal with 2Ed, but any help or suggestions are appreciated.

Well sir.

Unlike 3.5 Wizard necromancers are decent especially when using the complete necro guide.

At low levels that animate animal is invaluable.

I would go wiz/thief... though remember back stab has ONLY to do with where you are in relation to the thing you are stabbing. remember that this isn't 3.5

[Thane of Fife]

Well, I don't know too much about the Complete Book of Necromancers (though I thought it was more for DMs than players), but....

Specialist wizards aren't allowed to multi-class, and I think Necromancers are human-only, so (barring your DM changing that) you'd have to go Mage/Thief, which is certainly an interesting combination. And no (normal) races are allowed to be cleric/thieves. And humans can't multi-class anyway.

Assuming thate either the CBoN or your DM is allowing either, or that you're dual-classing, then you might consider some of the following:

1. Clerics get Animate Dead at lvl 5, where wizards get it at level 9. Other than that, though, clerics have very few necromantic spells, mostly Resurrection and similar. Wizards get Energy Drain and Control Undead and so on.

2. Invisibility doesn't work against all enemies (lots of HD or Intelligence and they'll see right through you).

3. It's going to be very difficult to dual-class from Necromancer to Thief or vice-versa, though replacing necromancer with cleric or mage makes it slightly more doable.

How do you want to play the character - I don't think there's anything wrong with either combination.

though remember back stab has ONLY to do with where you are in relation to the thing you are stabbing. remember that this isn't 3.5

Acually, the target must be unaware of your presence as well.

[Kantur]

Specialist wizards aren't allowed to multi-class, and I think Necromancers are human-only, so (barring your DM changing that) you'd have to go Mage/Thief, which is certainly an interesting combination. And no (normal) races are allowed to be cleric/thieves. And humans can't multi-class anyway.

Apart from Gnomes who can't multi-class as a Mage and instead have to multi-class as Illusionist/x but with us talking about Necromancers that makes no difference really.
But just to mention one small point, which is that Gnomes can be Cleric/Thief multi-classed characters.

[hamlet]

Specialist mages cannot, according to the PHB, multi-class, though that rule is very swiftly ignored by pretty much everyone and everything, including many modules. What's of more concern is that humans can't multi-class.

If you want to dual-class, and assuming you have the stats and are aware of the attendant issues and implications, then I recommend starting as a thief and moving into the necromancer class. At the very least, you'll have that much extra HP to start out with and, if you're careful about what you take weapon proficiency with as a thief, you're likely to be better off there as well. Just be aware that you won't be able to use thief abilities until your necromancer level reaches your thief level and passes it, or you will lose lots of XP. Dual-classing is tough.

While it's absolutely true that a cleric can raise dead much sooner than a wizard (and truly, the first five levels of cleric go by like a breeze) and clerics (of the evil sort that is) can attempt to control undead, necromancy is really an area where wizards shine in 2nd edition. Unless all you're wanting to do is raise the dead and control hordes of them, wizards are the way to go. They have far more range within the various archetypes of necromancers, especially when you add spells from other sources such as the Necromancer's Handbook. On top of that, and I may be wrong since I don't have the book in front of me, I believe that there is an ability in that particular book that gives arcane necromancers the ability to control undead.

If, as I suspect from your original post, you're looking to create a thief who dabbles in the arcane arts, I recommend just picking a half-elf or elf multi-class wizard thief who happens to use necromantic spells. You'll miss out on the extra spell slots (which might be a deal breaker, who knows) and some of the other minor benefits of specialization, but you'll get pretty much what you're looking for here, just on the squishier side.

[Thane of Fife]

But just to mention one small point, which is that Gnomes can be Cleric/Thief multi-classed characters.

Not according to my Player's Handbook, they can't. They can't have any multi-class involving cleric.

[Indon]

You don't necessarily have to choose one or another.

Elves can multiclass Wizard/Cleric, yes? Won't be as tough or sneaky as if you had thief stuff, though, and I imagine your XP gain would be very slow.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Well, I don't know too much about the Complete Book of Necromancers (though I thought it was more for DMs than players), but....

Specialist wizards aren't allowed to multi-class, and I think Necromancers are human-only, so (barring your DM changing that) you'd have to go Mage/Thief, which is certainly an interesting combination. And no (normal) races are allowed to be cleric/thieves. And humans can't multi-class anyway.

Assuming thate either the CBoN or your DM is allowing either, or that you're dual-classing, then you might consider some of the following:

1. Clerics get Animate Dead at lvl 5, where wizards get it at level 9. Other than that, though, clerics have very few necromantic spells, mostly Resurrection and similar. Wizards get Energy Drain and Control Undead and so on.

2. Invisibility doesn't work against all enemies (lots of HD or Intelligence and they'll see right through you).

3. It's going to be very difficult to dual-class from Necromancer to Thief or vice-versa, though replacing necromancer with cleric or mage makes it slightly more doable.

How do you want to play the character - I don't think there's anything wrong with either combination.

Well Actualy the hand guides where meant for players more then any thing.
And it gives an animal raise dead in there for arcanists at first level. Undead animals make some good meat shields... I highly recomend badgers as they seem to be versitile(atleast our necro put them to good use)

klemdakherzbag:
What optional rules are you guys using? Are you even using multiclass restrictions or racial level caps?

Acually, the target must be unaware of your presence as well.

Realy I seem to remember just having to be behind or flanking them. Which 2nd ed book are we talking about black cover or not?

[Thane of Fife]

Well Actualy the hand guides where meant for players more then any thing.
And it gives an animal raise dead in there for arcanists at first level. Undead animals make some good meat shields... I highly recomend badgers as they seem to be versitile(atleast our necro put them to good use)

Most of them were, but I seem to recall the Necromancer book being the exception - that's not to say that it can't be used by the players.

Realy I seem to remember just having to be behind or flanking them. Which 2nd ed book are we talking about black cover or not?

I'm using the unrevised, sort of brownish-cover edition.

Quote, pg 40, second paragraph of Backstab:

To use this ability, the thief must be behind his victim and the victim must be unaware that the thief intends to attack him.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Most of them were, but I seem to recall the Necromancer book being the exception - that's not to say that it can't be used by the players.



I'm using the unrevised, sort of brownish-cover edition.

Quote, pg 40, second paragraph of Backstab:

AA thats why Black Cover book(more recent not that it matters) has it just as needing to be flanking.

[hamlet]

AA thats why Black Cover book(more recent not that it matters) has it just as needing to be flanking.

I know of no such "black cover" PHB. You must have a pernicious forgery in your posession.

[Thane of Fife]

I know of no such "black cover" PHB. You must have a pernicious forgery in your posession.

Assuming that you aren't being sarcastic, which I suspect you might be, I assume he means this:

[LibraryOgre]

I own both the black cover (published in 95/96) and the older cover, so...

Page 57 of the black cover PH clearly spells out that you need to be behind and attacking from surprise; it furthermore specifies that the victim needs to be unaware of you.

Page 61 clearly lists cleric/thief as an available multiclass for gnomes.

As mentioned before, necromancers usually can't multiclass, but I believe that Complete Necromancers overrode that. I think it's also important to note, given what the OP mentioned wanting, that Necromancers opposition schools are Illusion and Enchantment, so no invisibility.

If your DM is willing to let you ignore some of these (no multiclassing Necros, Necros with no illusion), then I think a multi-class necro/thief is a good option. On the other hand, if he's not, then a cleric/thief who specializes in necromancy isn't a bad option at all. It's hard enough getting someone to play a cleric, and you don't need more than a 13 wisdom, anyway.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I own both the black cover (published in 95/96) and the older cover, so...

Page 57 of the black cover PH clearly spells out that you need to be behind and attacking from surprise; it furthermore specifies that the victim needs to be unaware of you.

Page 61 clearly lists cleric/thief as an available multiclass for gnomes.

As mentioned before, necromancers usually can't multiclass, but I believe that Complete Necromancers overrode that. I think it's also important to note, given what the OP mentioned wanting, that Necromancers opposition schools are Illusion and Enchantment, so no invisibility.

If your DM is willing to let you ignore some of these (no multiclassing Necros, Necros with no illusion), then I think a multi-class necro/thief is a good option. On the other hand, if he's not, then a cleric/thief who specializes in necromancy isn't a bad option at all. It's hard enough getting someone to play a cleric, and you don't need more than a 13 wisdom, anyway.

I stand corrected on the back stab issue. I'm away from books and most of my gms have let it go. so appologies.

[klemdakherzbag]

Usually if i can make a decent case for why my character exists the way i think he should, the DM will allow it. Racial level caps are in place, though the characters are usually killed long before that ever happens. We have been playing single classed characters so DM may or may not allow the specialist wizard to multi-class.

I have yet to specifically ask the DM his opinion as the idea just popped into my head last night, so we will see....

Also, anyone know if official ability adjustments exist for Yuan-ti within 2Ed?

[RagnaroksChosen]

Usually if i can make a decent case for why my character exists the way i think he should, the DM will allow it. Racial level caps are in place, though the characters are usually killed long before that ever happens. We have been playing single classed characters so DM may or may not allow the specialist wizard to multi-class.

I have yet to specifically ask the DM his opinion as the idea just popped into my head last night, so we will see....

Also, anyone know if official ability adjustments exist for Yuan-ti within 2Ed?

yes
There was a racial kit in one of the FR books regarding this..

[hamlet]

Assuming that you aren't being sarcastic, which I suspect you might be, I assume he means this:

Yes, I was, indeed, being sarcastic.

Downright snide even.

Such humor does not translate well via internet, seemingly.

[Thane of Fife]

Yes, I was, indeed, being sarcastic.

Downright snide even.

Such humor does not translate well via internet, seemingly.

I was almost sure that you were, but not entirely so, so I thought I'd put up the picture, just in case.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Yes, I was, indeed, being sarcastic.

Downright snide even.

Such humor does not translate well via internet, seemingly.

heh i figured as much...

Though it is a common misnomer that there where two prinints of 2nd ed

[klemdakherzbag]

So after a brief discussion with the DM, we decided that a good compromise is to play an Elf Thief/Mage who has a 'focus' in Necromancy. Basically he will not be a good as a true specialized Nercomancer, but better with Necro spells than a normal Mage.

Also Ragnarok, you wouldnt happen to be refering to Serpent Kingdoms as that is 3.5

[RagnaroksChosen]

god no...

Though i do <3 serpent kingdoms...


I want to say it was in a race guide or a guide to chult or something... Its been like 6 years and heavy pot smoking so im a little not sure of the book though i have seen a 2nd ed yanti kit.

[klemdakherzbag]

ah ok then suppose a little more research is due then

[t_catt11]

Man, I LOVE me some second edition!

The thing is, to play a "real" necromancer, you pretty much have to add in other source materials... whether from supplements or homebrew stuff. There's just not enough there in the core books, IMO.

[KellKheraptis]

While I can't remember what all was in the complete necromancer, I can say this : take a nice kit from one of the two, playing a human, and NEVER use your own body. Magic Jar as soon as you can, and if you feel like some combat, go crazy in a combat form. Giants are nice, and of course, if you can get into a dragon, you'll be an unholy terror. See if you can get an Anti-paladin buddy, or simply dominate him long enough to jar his soul out and a controlled undead in. For that matter, getting advanced undead is even better. See about raising a contingent of skeleton warriors or death knights, and keep that phylactery safe! And by all means...if the means present themselves to become a lich, do it! The clerics can turn you all they want, but if your phyli is on the Negative Energy Plane with a ready conduit between the two, you'll always come back. My first character was a Necromancer in 1st-2nd Ed, and I love it :D