[Pathfinder] Undead and Charisma

[Epinephrine]

So, Pathfinder changed undead from d12s to d8s, improved their BAB from +1/2 to +3/4, and now undead get Cha bonus to HP. With a 14-15 Charisma, this works out to the same HP as before (not surprisingly, the sample undead creatures in the bestiary all have a 14 or 15 Cha, working out to where they were in terms of HP, and possibly gaining some BAB).

I'm converting some material, and I've come across a sorcerer who has become a lich. Needless to say, high level sorcerers have high Cha scores (in this case 29 Cha), and a lot of HD. The converted lich has 202 HP which could prove to be a bit of a speed bump.

So, while I think it's not a bad idea to redo undead somewhat, I'm a little concerned at the huge advantage this gives sorcerer and favoured souls when it comes to lichdom (or other undead templates). I suspect the party will muddle through, but has anyone else thought about this issue, and whether it needs addressing?

[Xenogears]

I'm fairly certain that a number of undead already had CHA to HP and pathfinder was just universalizing it. I suppose the sorcerer Lich is vastly improved (especially since undead are already rather resistant to non-hp damage with their slew of immunities). So maybe it does favor them unfairly (especially since Wizard really fits the lich archetype much better) but I'm not sure how to fix it without just going back to the normal 3.5 d12+nothing for most undead.

[Starbuck_II]

So, Pathfinder changed undead from d12s to d8s, improved their BAB from +1/2 to +3/4, and now undead get Cha bonus to HP. With a 14-15 Charisma, this works out to the same HP as before (not surprisingly, the sample undead creatures in the bestiary all have a 14 or 15 Cha, working out to where they were in terms of HP, and possibly gaining some BAB).

I'm converting some material, and I've come across a sorcerer who has become a lich. Needless to say, high level sorcerers have high Cha scores (in this case 29 Cha), and a lot of HD. The converted lich has 202 HP which could prove to be a bit of a speed bump.

So, while I think it's not a bad idea to redo undead somewhat, I'm a little concerned at the huge advantage this gives sorcerer and favoured souls when it comes to lichdom (or other undead templates). I suspect the party will muddle through, but has anyone else thought about this issue, and whether it needs addressing?

It improves Incorpreals more since they get Cha to AC already.

[Ravens_cry]

I'm fairly certain that a number of undead already had CHA to HP and pathfinder was just universalizing it. I suppose the sorcerer Lich is vastly improved (especially since undead are already rather resistant to non-hp damage with their slew of immunities). So maybe it does favor them unfairly (especially since Wizard really fits the lich archetype much better) but I'm not sure how to fix it without just going back to the normal 3.5 d12+nothing for most undead.

Maybe it does, but now it adds new ideas. Like a vain, vile and evil, sorceress who wanted to preserve her beauty forever, but became a lich instead due to an error in the incantation. She now wears the skin of maidens she kills so she is 'beautiful' again. Or the 'Living God' of a tribe of barbarians. Or a sorcerer who sold his soul to a demon in exchange for ultimate power, but didn't want to deliver the goods, ever.

[Xenogears]

Maybe it does, but now it adds new ideas. Like a vain, vile and evil, sorceress who wanted to preserve her beauty forever, but became a lich instead due to an error in the incantation. She now wears the skin of maidens she kills so she is 'beautiful' again. Or the 'Living God' of a tribe of barbarians. Or a sorcerer who sold his soul to a demon in exchange for ultimate power, but didn't want to deliver the goods, ever.

Those ideas were all perfectly viable without the change and they still dont exemplify the lich archetype* as well which is all I said a wizard did. Mechanically both are about as comparitively good as a non-lich wizard is to a non-lich sorcerer in 3.5. In pathfinder the only difference is that the Sorcerer Lich has more hp. So good but not amazingly so.

*The Lich archetype being living forever and planning everything. Then planning it 8 more times just to be sure. After that maybe you've planned out how to do the laundry long enough and can get back to your 10000 contingency plan in case the heroes get McGuffin #37.

[chiasaur11]

Those ideas were all perfectly viable without the change and they still dont exemplify the lich archetype* as well which is all I said a wizard did. Mechanically both are about as comparitively good as a non-lich wizard is to a non-lich sorcerer in 3.5. In pathfinder the only difference is that the Sorcerer Lich has more hp. So good but not amazingly so.

*The Lich archetype being living forever and planning everything. Then planning it 8 more times just to be sure. After that maybe you've planned out how to do the laundry long enough and can get back to your 10000 contingency plan in case the heroes get McGuffin #37.

And then breaking down and weeping like a baby when the int five barbarian wrecks everything.