Over CR'd creatures.

[Thrawn183]

Ok, so there have been a lot of threads out there about monsters that are way more challenging than their CR would indicate, such as the monstrous crab or outsiders that cast as a cleric of higher level than their CR.

But what about monsters that are totally undeserving of their CR? As an example, I give you the humble Aboleth Mage. It takes the standard aboleth and makes it a CR 17. Yes a CR 17 with a whole 10 levels of wizard casting ability.

[bosssmiley]

Ogre Mage. CR8, for an Ogre with some SLAs? *meh*

[Sinfire Titan]

Dragons, when not used as a Primary caster. I've seen too many DMs confounded when their dragon is turned into street pizza by a single melee character.

[Kylarra]

Poor little Tarrasque is Over-CR'd against anything but the stereotyped party.

[woodenbandman]

Over CR'd huh? Well how about the Pit Fiend? Shoot, it doesn't even have 20th level cleric casting. And its claws are only a +30 to-hit. Planetar, that's a CR 20 creature, if only for the 17th level cleric spellcasting which makes everything better.

EDIT: and the book calls it a CR 16. I wonder if a Planetar would defeat a pit fiend in one on one.

[Eldariel]

Let's try...Ogres! These suckers are apparently a challenge to a level 1 party and yet a single Color Spray or Sleep has a very high chance of knocking them and their silly +1 Will-save senseless. Hell, toss 2 of them and the party still needs nothing but their Wizard to deal with them (and that's apparently CR 5).

Or the Purple Worm; it's cold to a single Hold Monster and even if that isn't available, something as simple as Glitterdust can take the sting out of its attacks; it doesn't exactly have quantity so 50% miss chance screws it over something royal. Basically, any dumb big brawler. They can't really even be vindicated by playing them in a cunning manner (though Worm snatching someone and escaping underground helps) since they tend to lack the mental capacity for cunning.

[CockroachTeaParty]

In general, I find the big bruisers to be somewhat of a paradox. Yes, typically they can be owned by one or two spells. But if you send them against a significantly lower-level party than their CR would suggest, there's a chance they'll get a hit in, and suddenly somebody's taken 50+ damage from a single hit and is dead or worse.

I once sent five advanced gargantuan Remorhaz against a party who had routinely made a mockery out of big dumb low Will save bruisers, and they came very close to death, simply because they couldn't deal with the numbers. If anything helps big stupid monsters, its having some friends to back them up. Optimize all you want, but it's going to take time to kill 5+ monsters with 100's of hp, and during that time the ones you've been forced to ignore are going to cause some trouble.

[Elfin]

Ogre Mage. CR8, for an Ogre with some SLAs? *meh*

Very true.

[ericgrau]

Ogre Mage. CR8, for an Ogre with some SLAs? *meh*

Invisibility at will. Endless flight with a maneuverability that your wizard has to spend a round to get (overland flight can't hover). And a bow to go with it, in addition to the melee option. Higher HP, higher damage. Easy escape unless dumb enough to fight out in the open. Unlimited shape change disguises. If the PCs aren't wasting a round or two just trying to counter the ogre mage's tactics, you're playing him way below his int (and his MM tactics description for that matter).

[Eldariel]

Invisibility at will. Endless flight with a maneuverability that your wizard has to spend a round to get (overland flight can't hover). And a bow to go with it, in addition to the melee option. Higher HP, higher damage. Easy escape unless dumb enough to fight out in the open. Unlimited shape change disguises. If the PCs aren't wasting a round or two just trying to counter the ogre mage's tactics, you're playing him way below his int (and his MM tactics description for that matter).

The principal issue is their lack of HP. Once the Invisibility is negated (say, by See Invisibility or Invisibility Purge or Glitterdust or some such), he'll be dying really fast.

They simply have too low HD & AC for their level, and given that their offense is practically nil (their Bow isn't even Composite!), as a combat encounter they really have no chance of being viable; Invisibility at Will still requires activation and ends when attacking.


As social movers, they could be rather efficient thanks to Change Shape, but they lack the necessary spells/skills to go all the way in that way too.

[ericgrau]

At will invisibility can be kept on all day, before the encounter begins. Glitterdust must be aimed, and see invisibility often isn't prepared. Nor do they know to use it anyway until after the ogre reveals himself. More likely it is broken with a free attack or full attack... perhaps in the air with a bow... in an enclosed dungeon so the overland flight wizard can't do much. The PCs are likewise forced to use range or spend a round casting fly. Once the ogre gets hurt he uses gaseous form to get under a door or crack and shapechanges to get a disguise or downs a potion or escapes or w/e. Assuming he didn't already shapechange and run to fool the PCs earlier. Using SLA's and avoiding combat if possible is the whole point; that's exactly what the MM says to do.

[Sinfire Titan]

Invisibility at will. Endless flight with a maneuverability that your wizard has to spend a round to get (overland flight can't hover). And a bow to go with it, in addition to the melee option. Higher HP, higher damage. Easy escape unless dumb enough to fight out in the open. Unlimited shape change disguises. If the PCs aren't wasting a round or two just trying to counter the ogre mage's tactics, you're playing him way below his int (and his MM tactics description for that matter).

His feats make up for it. Combat Expertise? When you have Invisibility at will? Imp Init makes sense. It would help if he had 1 more HD, or had Quicken SLA without needing to meet the requirements.

[Eldariel]

At will invisibility can be kept on all day, before the encounter begins. Glitterdust must be aimed, and see invisibility often isn't prepared. Nor do they know to use it anyway until after the ogre reveals himself. More likely it is broken with a free full attack... perhaps in the air with a bow... in an enclosed dungeon so the overland flight wizard can't do much. The PCs are likewise forced to use range or spend a round casting fly. Once the ogre gets hurt he uses gaseous form to get under a door or crack and shapechanges to get a disguise or downs a potion or escapes or w/e. Assuming he didn't already shapechange and run to fool the PCs earlier. Using SLA's and avoiding combat if possible is the whole point; that's exactly what the MM says to do.

This is all true, but fact is that due to the way actions are constructed, he'll be visible for a PCs' turn after the turn he shoots his volley. As his ranged attacks are sad (honestly, +2? Even at +2 vs. flat-footed, he still doesn't hit anything) and closing down to melee is a bad idea, his attacks are really trivial leaving him with that one Cone of Cold and not much else in terms of offense.

At this point, he eats the Glitterdust and better be close enough to a wall to Gaseous Form the hell out of there...if the party Fighter didn't already skewer him. Staying undetected is all fine, but as an encounter, he's hardly threatening to the PCs. Sure, if the PCs have to KILL him, it becomes much more difficult (though they'll know to prepare See Invisibilities at that point), but as a combat encounter, he isn't in any ways threatening to a level 8 party since his offense is inexistent. They're basically just different kinds of "turtles".

[ericgrau]

His feats make up for it. Combat Expertise? When you have Invisibility at will? Imp Init makes sense. It would help if he had 1 more HD, or had Quicken SLA without needing to meet the requirements.

CE does seem semi-odd. Maybe it's to make sure he survives a full round or two after breaking invisibility, so he can escape. But he doesn't have the AB to support such a tactic. Bear in mind while he likely enters combat invisible, he'll break invisibility with his first attack and it takes a standard action to put it up again.

[Eldariel]

CE does seem semi-odd. Maybe it's to make sure he survives a full round or two after breaking invisibility, so he can escape. Bear in mind while he likely enters combat invisible, he'll break invisibility with his first attack and it takes a standard action to put it up again.

Indeed, which is why he can never go invisible again the turn he attacks; giving the PCs a chance to act means they can Glitterdust him or w/e. Combat Expertise...sure, even with full CE, his AC is 21. At CR8. Just...not gonna cut it. It doesn't just matter. All Combat Expertise does is ensure that he doesn't deal damage.

[ericgrau]

As for tactics above: Bow (or invisibility and melee) lets him pick the low AC target. But actually he's more likely to open with a 9d6 cone of cold (31.5 avg damage to multiple targets). In melee he has combat expertise for safety. Not to mention, for the 3rd time, his description says to use physical combat only when necessary. Invisibility, cone of cold, win initiative, finish off a low HP/AC PC and run after the PCs only get 1 round to respond is one brutal option, for example. Or run in round 1 before any significant response, invis, and come back with another surprise attack. Or shapechanged trickery, getting involved with the plot. Following the PCs until they burn some spells or get hurt, etc.

Bear in mind he's not supposed to be that hard for a level 8 party (just a typical challenge), and a level 6 wizard with 2+dex reflex save and low HP risks going down from the DC 18 cone of cold alone.

[Eldariel]

Indeed, as I said, Cone of Cold is his only real attack option. And even there, the save DC is quite low for the level meaning there's a decent chance of it doing ~15 points of damage.

Did you check his To Hit with the bow? It's +2. Even if he manages to catch the PCs by surprise again AND gets the shot off, it's still at +4 vs. flat-footed AC which I'd assume is a bare minimum of 14 (Mage Armor) so at best everything going right for him it's a 50/50 chance for him to hit. And even then it's only average 7 points of damage.


And PCs honestly can deal 40 points of damage in a single turn. Hell, if the Wizard happens to have Scorching Ray around, that alone can add up to 28 points of damage at CL 7 with a trivially easy Touch AC.

[ericgrau]

The wizard who fell unconcious in the surprise round? And even a 6th level rogue has around a 50:50 chance of making that save. And scorching ray hits 8d6 at 7th level, when the fight isn't supposed to be all that hard anyway.

Like I said, maybe it's easy for an 8th-ish level party that blows "1/4 of its resources" on a high level spell, but that's what CR 8 means.

[Gorbash]

But actually he's more likely to open with a 9d6 cone of cold (31.5 avg damage to multiple targets)

...on a failed save. Against DC 18. Can't really call that challenging even at lvl 5, when Greater Resistance comes into play.

Or run in round 1 before any significant response

In one round he'll be dead, he only has 37 hp for christ's sake.

[ericgrau]

You should look at a 5th-6th level party's saving throw modifiers. Their chance of failure is high. If using splatbooks, enemy CR or stats should be upped to match.

See above for survivability issues.

[Fiery Diamond]

I am a little confused. Why would glitterdust work? It might blind him, sure, but it isn't going to keep him from going invisible. As soon as he activates his invisibility, the sparkles on him go caput. If he's invisible and hit with glitterdust - hey, now we know where he is! But hitting something with glitterdust before they go invisible (as long as they don't get blinded) doesn't do anything.

[ericgrau]

I dunno about that, but it's moot. He comes in invisible before the PCs act and leaves gaseous formed. If glitterdusted anyway he can wait out the duration before returning. The downside is the PCs may heal up in 5+ rounds, but with 1 less spell slot and fewer heals for next time.

[Deepblue706]

I think many of the monsters that appear weak for their CR tend to do well under circumstances where their CR accumulates with other monsters to meet for a slightly higher-level challenge (Edit: I mean to accomodate a higher level party, not simply making the CR higher) - specifically, other monsters with different strengths and weaknesses so that choosing to nullify one will likely do nothing for the other. Or, merely others alike itself as a buffer, or a distraction altogether.

Although I think the Ogre Mage is a fair-enough CR 8 challenge, I think he and 3 Ogre buddies will likely make for a better encounter than say, most lone CR 9 creatures, if they play to their tactics. At the moment, I can only think of Dragons of the CR to be an exception.

[ericgrau]

Good point, who says the ogre mage can only prep invisibility on himself?

[Starscream]

Vampires. Yeah, they have lots of impressive powers, but they also have the most incredibly crippling weaknesses of any monster.

The biggest one is holy symbols. According to SRD "A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action."

Get that? Just wave a holy symbol at them. You don't need to spend a turn attempt. You don't need to make a roll. The vampire doesn't get a save. You don't even need to worship or believe in the god in question. All you need is a holy symbol (on sale for 1GP) and the ability to perform standard actions. A 1st level commoner can do it just as well as a 20th level cleric. And they can both do it to Strahd von Zarovich.

That means that no party that is even slightly prepared will have trouble with them. Get some hirelings, give them a holy symbol each, and have them hold the thing at bay while you dispatch it.

Or better yet, get some golems or animated skeletons to do it. Imprison the vampire forever by surrounding him with skeletons who have orders to do nothing but show him the symbols every round. He won't be able to leave or attack them. Even turning into a cloud won't help if you suspend a skeleton from the ceiling.

Turn it into a tourist attraction. For five GP you get three cloves of garlic to throw at him. Land one in his mouth and get a free "Sparkle this." t-shirt.

Unless he has spells. Then he can probably find a way out of it. But even then you are talking a spellcaster who gave up 8 caster levels for a template that gave them some truly awful weaknesses.

[Kelpstrand]

Core only.

Level 8 Wizard save of +4-5 before items/spells. HP of 37.5 or 45.5. AC (not flat footed, since invis broken by spell) AC 13-14 before armor or spells. See Mage Armor and Protection From Arrows.

Chance of dropping in surprise round given Ogre rolling average on damage? 0%.

Level 8 Rogue save of +11-12 before items. HP of 46.5 before items. AC of 18 min.

Level 8 Cleric save of probably fail. HP of 55.5 or maybe only 47.5. AC of 18 or more.

Nope. Not seeing anyone drop in the surprise round at all.

Seeing lots of people with good init modifiers rolling against a CR 8 enemy who dies to 37 damage.

And once again, Cone of Cold done, even if Ogre Mage escapes, they heal up with a wand, and then what? He can never do decent damage again. His attack against anyone is a whole +4 vs AC 14 at the least for 2d6 damage? Ouch, look at those HP numbers again, the ones that they will have when he comes back for the second time to do 3.5 average damage against a flat footed Wizard.

Escape? Maybe. Be a threat later that day at all? No.

[Eldariel]

The wizard who fell unconcious in the surprise round? And even a 6th level rogue has around a 50:50 chance of making that save. And scorching ray hits 8d6 at 7th level, when the fight isn't supposed to be all that hard anyway.

Like I said, maybe it's easy for an 8th-ish level party that blows "1/4 of its resources" on a high level spell, but that's what CR 8 means.

I claim a level 8 party needs only one-two attacks and low-level spells (e.g. Scorching Ray & Magic Missile); practically no resources outside charges from the Wand of Cure Light Wounds to kill an Ogre Mage. And again, the Gaseous Form escape is ONLY possible if circumstances favor the Ogre Mage by the fight being in some enclosed space with lots of cracks in walls, and walls near enough to go through with that 10' fly of Gaseous Form (in other words, +1 to the CR of the encounter).

I'm going to claim an NPC level 8 Human Wizard is going to be MUCH more formidable a challenge than an Ogre Mage even though by the CR system they should be the same; the NPC Wizard lacks Invisibility at will, true, but he DOES know Greater Invisibility which removes the need for multiple castings. Other than that, he replicates all the Ogre Mage's tricks better (with much more gas for offensive casting if going that road), the same HP (assuming 14 starting Con from Elite Array), better AC (with magical buffs; e.g. Alter Self into Trogdolyte, which is a 10 min./level spell), etc.

[ericgrau]

As I said, a level 8 party should be at little risk against a CR 8 encounter. It should (and does) only cause them to burn some resources. For a CR 8 fight to be dangerous, try a level 6 party. For a chance of TPK, try 4 levels lower, i.e. a level 4 party. And usually the monsters pick the dungeon, not the PCs. Most have doors anyway.

As for vampires, they do seem like all or nothing. They're easy if prepared, but a nuisance the first time you fight one.

[Kelpstrand]

As I said, a level 8 party should be at little risk against a CR 8 encounter. It should (and does) only cause them to burn some resources. For a CR 8 fight to be dangerous, try a level 6 party. For a chance of TPK, try 4 levels lower, i.e. a level 4 party.

Except the entire and complete point is that literally every single other CR monster that is not an animal, and also, every CR 7 Monster that isn't an Animal, is going to expend more resources than an Ogre Mage, because they have ABs that actually hit, and are real threats.

[ericgrau]

That would be quite contradictory to the openly stated purpose of the CR system if it were so. Storm Giant, CR 8, 20 damage per hit and a hit maybe every other round vs. a decent AC. High HP for a longer fight, but still droppable in short order since all the PCs stay healthy. Each PC does similar damage to it. Little risk to a level 8 party; anyone can heal even if they do get hit. No special ability to put all the PCs at low HP in round 1, for example. Likewise more trouble against a level 6 party.