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Thread: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
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2009-09-19, 04:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Level 21 Wizard Challenge
Okay, a level 21 Wizard with Epic Spellcasting breaks the game. Everyone says so, so it must be true. The question is, how? Is he all that much more powerful than a level 20 Wizard without?
Here's where the challenge comes in. By the CR/EL rules, a level 22 wizard should be a match for two level 20 wizards. Since the purpose of the challenge is to prove that Epic Spellcasting is borked, the challenge needs to be harder than that. Your level 21 Epic Wizard has to take on three non-epic Wizards, and win, to successfully demonstrate the bork'dness of Epic Spellcasting.
Rules:
- You get one 28 point buy ECL 21 Wizard, who must have taken "Epic Spellcasting"
- Your opponents are three 28 point buy ECL 20 Wizards, who will use roughly comparable optimization as you, but will function more or less independently of eachother. If you don't use Celerity+Timestop, they don't either. They are not your lesser clones, but they will let you set the bar for what sort of munchkinry can be pulled.
- PrC's are allowed, but discouraged; your opponents will remain pure-Wizard if you do.
- All four of you have 10,000 spare xp to use for crafting and/or spellcasting.
- You can take as much time to prepare as you want, but your opponents get the same, and everyone is equally aware when "combat" is going to begin.
- All four of you start with WBL gear and no allies. Gaining allies through various magical means is allowed, but might piss of people who would be reasonably pissed off by that. For example, chain-gating Solars will bring in their patron deities against you.
- No fortresses/deathtraps. You can choose the field of battle, but they get equal time to prepare there as you.
- You must use Epic Spellcasting as part of your victory.
- All official 3.5 books allowed. Un-updated 3.0 material allowed only on a case-by-case basis.
- Rules may be added or clarified later. Any changes will be added to the thread.
Scoring:
- Victory will be defined as defeating (killing or rendering harmless) all three opponents while remaining undefeated (alive and dangerous) yourself.
- Partial victory will be defined as defeating at least two of the opponents, or defeating all three but losing Epic Spellcasting in the process (due to xp drain or other factors). This may also cover victory under certain limited restrictions (winning if they attack in serial rather than in tandem; using unique items such as artifacts; winning primarily through non-epic advantages; dying shortly after the challenge ends as a direct result of actions taken). You can also attain a Partial Victory by winning at level 22 instead.
Winners:
Full Victory
Eldariel
Kelpstrand
Partial Victory
quick_comment
(edit) Just saying something's possible doesn't count unless you actually stat it out and show that it's reasonably attainable.Last edited by sonofzeal; 2009-09-20 at 11:58 PM.
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2009-09-19, 04:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
research an epic spell that makes a spellcasting minion, use time or xp mitigators to reduce the cost in time, gp and xp to 0. use your new minion to start creating other minions, no angry gods with stolen solars involved. once you get recursive spellcasting minions with total loyalty there's not much else you need to do before giving yourself 21+ divine ranks and all the hot girlz.
Give them bread and circusses and the plebs wont rise against you. Give adventurers dungeons and trapped chests and they won't waste time looking to ransack your home and kill your wife.
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2009-09-19, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
Call (do not summon) spellcasting monster of your choice.
Craft an epic spell that uses all of said spellcasting monster's highest spell slots. This spell calls as many of said spellcasting monster as you can reasonably manage while still mitigating the XP and gold cost to zero.
Repeat this process an arbitrary number of times.
Craft an epic spell that disposes of your enemies with an arbitrarily high save DC using your arbitrary number of called spellcasting monsters.
Win.
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2009-09-19, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
Please actually stat out the Epic Spell you're trying to research. Include full specification on Seeds, gp/xp costs, Spellcraft DC, etc. Make sure your Wizard can actually reasonably cast it.
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2009-09-19, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-09-19, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-09-19, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
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2009-09-19, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
Hmm could one create a personal demiplane made out of coldfire or am I remembering the spells incorrectly.
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2009-09-19, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
Yes. Yes you could.
You can also use epic spells to do such fun things as, say, creating spellcasting minions, negating the whole "angry god" scenario.
Basically, what we're getting at here is that you really need to put some time constraints on this thing. If given an arbitrary amount of time to prepare, the epic wizard really can't lose. Ever.
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2009-09-19, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
I don't see why calling in the one or two Solars that it would take to give up enough 8th and 9th level spells to drastically reduce the DC of the spell you're trying to create would piss off a God. Every 9th/8th level spell a Solar contributes is like, 15 or 17? or so off the Spell DC.
Each Solar has 5 level 9 spells and 5 level 8 spells. If they burn all of them, that's like -150ish to the Spell DC. From ONE Solar.Last edited by Meek; 2009-09-19 at 05:09 PM.
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2009-09-19, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-09-19, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
A properly optimized wizard with access to the right PrC's can easily trounce a Wizard 21, or even a Wizard 24. At Character Level 20. But the factor is superior use of Epic Spellcasting, so if Mr. Twink encounters Mr. Twink +4 levels, all that really happens is the planet blows up, since neither will be able to affect the other. And this is with less than a day of time constraint at this level. By the way, don't forget that one Mythal can elevate one to divinity given enough prevalent and vanguard effects, and that's not to mention that you can use a Major Effect to mimic any item or power there is. Miracle at will? Can it be built as an item? Yes, please.
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2009-09-19, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
Elan Wizard with Genesis Plane:
Step 1, Research Spell that creates single Coutal Ally permanently, mitigate to DC 0, 0 XP.
Step 2: Cast spell hundreds of times.
Step 3: Using spells from Coutals, Mitigate new spell to call 10 Solars.
Step 4: Cast Spell hundreds of times.
Step 5: Use Arbitrarily Large Solar and Coutal Army to mitigate the Conjure seed used to create a creature:
"The conjure seed can be used in conjunction with the life and fortify seeds for an epic spell that creates an entirely new creature, if made permanent. To give a creature spell-like abilities, apply other epic seeds to the epic spell that replicate the desired ability. To give the creature a supernatural or extraordinary ability rather than a spell-like ability, double the cost of the relevant seed. Remember that two doublings equals a tripling, and so forth. To give a creature Hit Dice, use the fortify seed. Each 5 hit points granted to the creature gives it an additional 1 HD. Once successfully created, the new creature will breed true."
Giving it:
Arbitrarily large number of HD.
Extraordinary Mind switch ability (So that it will switch minds with you).
Extraordinary Armor bonus of + AN
Extraordinary Deflection bonus of + AN
Extraordinary immunity to Divinations, and Permanent Greater Invis.
Extraordinary ANd6 damage with Destroy Seed at will.
Extraordinary Divinations with Forsee seed at will.
Extraordinary +AN enhancement bonuses to all stats and saves, and SR AN.
Extraordinary Heal itself for AN damage.
Extraordinary Reflect attacks (AN per round melee or ranged, and AN number of spells, including epic, but also 1-9, and even area spells)
Extraordinary True Seeing that auto Pierces all non epic spells.
Extraordinary Ward against all spells level 1-10. (10 means Epic).
Elan wins.
Now, you could do something merely game breakingly awesome like not use the Conjure seed to create your new vessel, but instead just give your self +500 to all stats, +500 to all saves, +500 deflection bonus to AC, Ward against all spells 1-10, and SR 500, DR 500/Epic, Energy Resistance 500 to all elements.
And then just use your regular Wizard casting, or heck, melee attacks, to kill things while you remain invulnerable against your non Epic opponents. But Conjure Seed is more fun.
EDIT: All spells cost 0 XP and 0 GP and DC 0 spellcraft. Because of Coutal and Solar contribution.
The first spell to call a Coutal to obey me for a permanent duration is mitigated to 0 by increasing casting time.Last edited by Kelpstrand; 2009-09-19 at 05:23 PM.
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2009-09-19, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-09-19, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
If we don't want to use assistants, we can also just figure out the Spellcraft DC we can make:
-We can have 24 ranks
-+2 from K: Arcana synergy
-~+14 Intelligence as a base (more if we're truly utilizing Polymorph Any Object, but that is probably excessive)
-+15 Divine Insight
-+20 Guidance of the Avatar (assuming no custom items)
-some miscellaneous bonuses.
The above add up to about +65 or so, so we can expect to hit ~DC 75 consistently. We can also easily get -42 by taking 42d6 Backlash Damage (averages 147; simple Con 24 is gonna get us by that) and for permanent spells, -220 from casting time (which is made quite trivial by Genesis and fast time progression planes). All we need are ways to consistently cast Heal, such as Shapechange into Planetar & preparing it.
So we can quite easily generate DC 120 boost spells without any XP cost or such, and actual permanent spells of DC ~350 without much pain (note that XP costs are less painful on permanent spells for obvious reasons; not using Thought Bottles here).
DC120 allows generating a spell that grants us...+16 Insight to Int, for example. We can then generate a spell that also gives us +20...Luck to Int. These have to be cast daily due to the stupid stipulation preventing permanencying non-Inherent bonuses. Anyways, this gives us some extra for our DCs, though not much. The bigger effect is that if a non-epic Wizard is targeted by our non-epic SoD effects, they will fail their saves. We'll also have lots of dailies.
Permanent Ward vs. all spells would be a bit too expensive to generate. However, you can Ward yourself vs. Orbs, Maw of Chaos, Anti-Magic Field, Disjunction, Greater Dispel Magic & other Dispel-magic and overall, things which might prove detrimental to your health. You can also generate a few Contingencies, all these permanent mind you, to better protect yourself. And yeah, eh, you can just become immortal with little effort with epic spellcasting.
Even then you can do a lot, though of course the true reason Epic Spellcasting is so busted is 'cause of what you can do with help.Last edited by Eldariel; 2009-09-19 at 05:19 PM.
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2009-09-19, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
Give them bread and circusses and the plebs wont rise against you. Give adventurers dungeons and trapped chests and they won't waste time looking to ransack your home and kill your wife.
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2009-09-19, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
The problem with Epic Spellcasting is that it's useless if you play nice and utterly broken if you optimise.
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2009-09-19, 05:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
All is not as it seems, young grasshopper. We have the technology to get access to Epic Spellcasting, if only for the duration of a form change. And in that time, we will raise a mythal that will persist indefinitely after our base epic spellcasting ability lapses. It was on 339 a bit ago, Noldor and Dr. Rocktopus special :) Only I do it without being a Kobold, and at a different level (really any level once you have what you want). So yes, I do have Epic Spellcasting at level 20, and remaining epic spellcasting afterwards.
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2009-09-19, 05:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
Some of the posters here are sorely mistaken about how Epic Spellcasting mitigation works. For example, backlash is dealt per round of a spell's duration and a given creature can only submit one spell slot to a ritual casting.
@OP: I'd suggest taking out all the most ludicrous shenanigans, like time-trait genesis planes. I'd also suggest removing NI nonsense and possibly all ritual casting. A time limit would be nice too.Last edited by Claudius Maximus; 2009-09-19 at 05:37 PM.
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2009-09-19, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
While characters can obviously gain epic spellcasting before 21 that may not not be relevant to this challenge since the opponents are using comparable optimization and as epic spellcasting is so powerful that any optomization that got it before 21 would only really be comparable to another build who did the same at exactly the same level. So to preclude any method of gaining access to epic spellcasting or anything that has epic spellcasting the level 21 wizard need only to avoid gaining such things before level 21.
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2009-09-19, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
Let's see... the as-written Epic Spellcasting rules don't include how to add actual spellcasting to a newly-created creature for ritualists. However, it's not necessary:
Originally Posted by SRD, Special Abilities
So you use Conjor (where the rules for creating critters with spell-likes are found) along with Life (required), Fortify (required), and Compel (to make it loyal) to make a critter that has an Epic spell-like ability (what that ability is doesn't matter, as long as it can use it at least twice per day) that is utterly loyal to you. The creature only needs one hit dice.
21: Conjour (Base DC 21) is my base seed (no save, no SR); and I don't need to add anything to it not found in the base seed (besides the spell-like, which we'll get to)
25: Fortify (Base DC 17) is required by Conjour for giving the critter hit dice. I only need it to have one hit die (5 "temporary" HP), so I need 4 levels of temp HP augmentation for a DC of 25 from this aspect.
27: Life (base DC 27) gives the critter stats. I don't really need anything beyond the base, for this.
29: Compel (Base DC 19) needs to be in there. "Follow all the commands of your creator" is good, although I'll want the +10 for "unreasonable course of action" in there, for a 29.
60: I also need a spell-like ability, which can be anything. Maybe Life (DC 27) for what amounts to Ressurection, and Heal (Base DC 25, +6 for getting rid of ability drain, +2 for getting rid of negative levels, too).
So before adding Permanent, it's got a base DC of 162. After making it Permanent, it's 810 (which is a pity; Permanently summoning a Planetar would only be 210, but that's essentially disallowed here). Now we need to mitigate that to the point where it doesn't cost anything.
I use Lesser Planar Binding to get some allied ritualists.
Trumpet Archons are 12 HD Outsiders that cast as 12th level clerics. We can do better - Ghaeles are 10 HD outsiders that cast as 14th level clerics. That'll do. They've got a +10 Will save and a Charisma modifier of only +3, and SR 28. Which means if I've got a Will save DC on Conjouration spells of 30 or better, and can get a +22 or better modifier on my opposed Charisma check, I'm only looking at nat-20 and nat-1 clauses on getting these guys to do me a service. Moment of Prescience will give me a +caster level on an opposed ability check. If I've got an Orange Prism Ioun Stone, that's a a caster level of 22, for a +22 modifier on the bargaining (provided I've got a Charisma of 10). Sufficient. If he gets a 20, he's got a 23. If I get a 2, I've got a 24. I win. 90% success rate on the Calling. If I ignore any slots from a high ability modifier, a standard Wizard can do this four times per day with the full ritual. At a caster level of 22, I can keep them around for up to 22 days. The deal is that they help me as ritualists on my next 44 Epic spells. 88 attempts in that period, with a 90% success rate, averages 79.2 Called Ghaeles. Each casts as a Cleric-14, so that's 7th level spells, at 13 points of mitigation each. Oh, hey - that's 1027 points of mitigation right there from their 7th level spell slots. When it comes down to it, I really only need 62 of them (so a 70% success rate on the Planar Binding is enough for this; that'd be a save DC of 26 - as I can Heighten the Planar Binding spell to 9th, I only need a +7 Intelligence modifier to do that (+5, if I take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Conjouration)). With all those spell slots, it's a DC 0 Epic spell, for no research time, no XP cost, and no GP cost.
This is a 22 day warm-up time.
So now I'm mass-manufactoring healing critters, at a rate of 2 per day. If they're left running around after? Well, I don't really care, they won't hurt much, and they're easy to dispose of if they do turn out to cause problems. Plus they're fanatically loyal to me, forever. But each one I create has a 10th level spell-like abilities that I can use to fuel Epic casting, at 19 mitigation each, for 38 per day (initially). As creating one costs 810 base spellcraft, after I've got 43 of them (22 days after I'm done with warm-up, day 44), I can double up all my numbers and twin the Epic spell, still be at 0 DC. After another 43 of them (11 days after that, day 55), I can triple up my base numbers to make 3 of them with each casting. After I've got another 43 of them (8 more days, day 63), I can quadruple up my base numbers to make 4 of them with each casting. Oh yeah, and at this point, about two month's into my prep-work, I've got something like 3,200 points of mitigation readily available. And this is exponential growth - I double my available mitigation every 22 days this way, quite easily (it's actually slightly faster than that, but I don't feel like working up the spreadsheet at the moment to get precise figures).
How high of a DC is the "I Win" spell? You've granted me arbitrarily high prep-time. With a 22 day doubling period on the 22 day warm-up period for an 810 DC, in 220 days from "start" I get mitigation of roughly 14,580. In 352 days (22 day warm-up plus 15 doubling cycles), I get mitigation of roughly 26,542,080 points.Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2009-09-19 at 05:59 PM.
Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2009-09-19, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
In that case it's best to limit it to strictly Wizard levels, because otherwise you'll have 2v1 epic spellcasting throwing solar systems at each other (pun intended). And don't forget...even if you do piss off a god, you shouldn't be mortal by this point, and Epic Spells affect gods. So long as you are never surprised, you can steal initiative all day, even from SDA's, and if they have the same tech, it's the same old song and dance of rocket tag. Even for a god 20-40 HD higher :P
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2009-09-19, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-09-19, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
I have a method that uses absolutely zero goons.
Step 1: Have a 21st level wizard who knows shun/embrace dark chaos.
Step 2: Design an epic spell that is arbitrarily powerful, but is mitigated by requiring 9 thousand decillion epic spells contributed. For these purposes, let us imagine that it does 2 billion d20 points of every type of damage, the same amount of negative levels, causes a save or die to anyone with less than 1 trillion HD, and makes them save or be turned into a potato. Boost the save DC to 2 billion, and have it have +2 billion to overcome SR. Finally, make it an emanation with an area equal to the size of the milky way galaxy. Let's call the spell "Annihilation"
Step 3: Shun/embrace to get permanent emanation (Annihilation) because the feat does not specify non epic spells, or spells you can cast on your own.
Nor does it state that you must actually cast the spell to be made permanent.
Step 4: Win.Epic avatar by Serpentine
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WIN
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2009-09-19, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-09-19, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
It doesn't need to. The rules for epic spells do that.
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2009-09-19, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-09-19, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-09-19, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
Epic avatar by Serpentine
(>*,,*)> Zombie wants to be your friend.
There are no problems that cannot be solved by a liberal enough application of wolves. Think about it.
WIN
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2009-09-19, 06:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Level 21 Wizard Challenge
Mitigate how exactly?
Excellent! However, remember that you only have two epic spell slots at this level. Which two epic spells are you going to cast on the big day?
I like your idea of using SLA's for mitigation. I'm not quite sure it works though - SLA's are cast like spells, but what the epic spellcasting asks for isn't spells, it's spell slots. As much as your minion might cast the spell, I don't think they could be argued to have the slot.
Also, Ghaele suffer a similar issue to the whole "chain-gating Solar" thing, in that you'll get some nasty company fairly quickly. Specifically, the Court of Stars and related deities are not going to look kindly on binding that many Ghaele. They may not all have 9th level Wizard spells, but the resources at their disposal are tremendous. I'm assuming for this that deities and various other interplanar powers generally keep an eye out for people binding/calling whole bunches of minions, because {a} they like having minions, and {b} they don't like mortals running around with DC eleventy-billion epic spells.