4.0: question about diffuculty

[thefinalbattle]

okay, so we all know that two levels higher then the party is a hard, but is four levels higher impossible or just very very hard?

[Nightson]

Depends on the level, the optimization, the party makeup, and the monster set up.

The answer in general is yes.

[thefinalbattle]

basically it would be the level three party described in the starter set DMs booklet, vs a yuan-ti swiftscale. only that. but the PCs can't move until they have it bloodied. at which point it might use a special abillity i might give it to summon two goblin hexers.

[Nightson]

Well I can't find the Yuan-ti Swiftscale anywhere, but it sounds like it's a high level regular monster. And the answer is, no, you can't throw it at them and have them well, live. Monsters work at plus or minus five levels.

[thefinalbattle]

it's a level seven monster not recorded in monster manuals, however i have a stat card for it that came with my DND miniatures starter set.

[Kurald Galain]

okay, so we all know that two levels higher then the party is a hard, but is four levels higher impossible or just very very hard?

Definitely not impossible. Four levels? That's +4 to hit and defenses, which is not at all insurmountable. Two levels higher may well be par for the course if your party is decent at character building, at strategy, and at teamwork. A good party would consistently be able to take on encounters four levels higher. Sure, it would cost them dailies and action points, but that's what dailies and action points are for.

[Thajocoth]

An encounter 4 levels above the party's level is doable... The DMG says you should try to keep it within the range of 1 below to 3 above, but it also mentions that if you have an encounter that's 4 above, you should count it as 2 encounters for the purposes of milestones. In saying that, they're saying that it's not entirely unreasonable to do.

EDIT: A monster 4 levels above? I don't know the party's level. The higher they are, the larger a gap they can comfortably face. At level 1, I'd say no. At level 6, definitely. At level 3... Sure, try it.

[Sir_Elderberry]

A good adventurer doesn't believe in impossible.

[Orzel]

+4 encounter with monsters within 3 of their level: Very hard. Doable but the party will have to nova, use good tactics, and use most of their action points.

+4 standard monster in a standard level encounter: Not too bad if they are at least over level 5. Will need a buff leader or attack bonus powers.

+4 elite or solo monster: high chance of TPK. no

[thefinalbattle]

okay, so would this be a good final encounter?

[Kurald Galain]

+4 elite or solo monster: high chance of TPK. no

Huh? Most solo monsters aren't particularly threatening because they'll simply get dazed, immobilized, marked, cursed and so forth all at the same time. Sure, they take long to kill because they can have 500 or more hit points, but a group of monsters is generally much more dangerous than a solo.

[Orzel]

Huh? Most solo monsters aren't particularly threatening because they'll simply get dazed, immobilized, marked, cursed and so forth all at the same time. Sure, they take long to kill because they can have 500 or more hit points, but a group of monsters is generally much more dangerous than a solo.

Because if you don't stunlock it, it has +4 to attack rolls and defenses, and 100 extra HP. It will be hitting of rolls of 5 and 6 and the party will need natural 16s and above to hit.

Adult black dragon 11 solo lurker: +16 attack 28 AC
19 str superior 7th level 2H fighter with feats: +12 attack 21 AC

Dragon hits 75% of the time with 2 claws and deals 2d6+8 damage
Fighter misses 75% of the time and takes 1d8+4 damage

Not counthing the breath weapon that will hit, deal damage, and drop the fighter AC so the dragon can only miss on a 1.

Meaning if you don't lock it with a daily power, everyone gets smashed.
Boring fight or TPK.

[Kurald Galain]

Because if you don't stunlock it, it has +4 to attack rolls and defenses, and 100 extra HP. It will be hitting of rolls of 5 and 6 and the party will need natural 16s and above to hit.

Dragons, maybe. But dragons are pretty much the strongest solo around.

Everything else, the party will just prone, daze, mark, curse, quarry etcetera. 100 extra HP doesn't matter - that only adds tedium, not challenge. If it has +4 on attack, then sure, it will hit often, but that's what healers are for. If it has +4 on defense, then the party will still hit on a 12 or 13 given decent tactics and/or a good leader. Then there's also many powers that auto-hit, or boost attacks, or drop defenses.

But yeah, most solos do make for a boring fight regardless.

[thefinalbattle]

hmm... would it still be boring if when bloodied he could not be stunned?

[AllisterH]

hmm... would it still be boring if when bloodied he could not be stunned?

It would mitigate the concern but then you turn the monster into an actual videogame BOSS monster.

Notice in many videogame RPGs, you can't actually use the speciail abilties like blindness, stun and sleep since the whole action denial means that a monster is pretty much screwed when gangpiled like that.

I've found that the best method is what others have done. Simply bite the bullet and use more monsters (for example, a LEVEL X+4 SOLO is equal to 2 Solos of LEVEL X and even though they are "weaker", they provide a much better fight) or design a Solo from the ground up

[thefinalbattle]

okay, but seven is an odd number, so it's indivisible by two.

[Kurald Galain]

hmm... would it still be boring if when bloodied he could not be stunned?

Yes, because (at least in heroic tier) stunning is not really an option for the player characters, and thus isn't the problem.

However, making the monster immune to some condition doesn't really help, because this takes certain player powers from overpowered to worthless. Given that characters only get six combat powers, other than at-wills, making some of those powers worthless makes the fight (1) more boring and (2) more liable to TPK.

[thefinalbattle]

okay, so how can i make it unboring.

[Kurald Galain]

okay, so how can i make it unboring.

What Allister said - use two slightly lower-level monsters. Or, throw in a group of minions, or a few extra enemies. Just take the name "solo" with a grain of salt and add in some support monsters for variety.

[Hzurr]

A few things I've noticed in regard to Solos:

1) They tend to have too much HP. This has been fixed slightly in MM2 (Actually, a lot of the issues with Solos and Minions were fixed in MM2). I recommend decreasing the total amount of hp, and giving the monster an additional attack power, or something else interesting to make up for it

2) They need to have a way of preventing getting dazed/stunned/whatever over and over until they die. Some do this with bonuses to saving throws, some are able to make an immediate saving throws, some are able to deflect attacks onto party members. Quick example Last week, my party went up against a solo monster that, rather than having a normal initiative, had 3 set initiatives (25, 15, and 5), and each one of those was able to take 1 standard action. It made things very interesting, because powers that lasted til the end of the monsters next turn, or that were "save ends" had a completely different dynamic

3) The environment needs to be exciting. The one thing that 4e has done very well, is make a big deal about where you're fighting, not just what. Don't put the solo they fight in a 30' x 30' square room. Put obstacles and traps, and interesting terrain in it. I recommend coming up with something that can be dangerous to both the party, and the solo, so that the party can try and use more advanced tactics to use the terrain or whatever it is to their advantage, while trying to prevent the monster from using it for it's advantage.

[valadil]

okay, so we all know that two levels higher then the party is a hard, but is four levels higher impossible or just very very hard?

I haven't GMed 4th yet so I'm just speculating based on 3.5. My answer is that it depends.

Level 1 characters shouldn't fight something that's level 5. Level 11 characters would be challenged by something level 15. Level 21 characters will do fine against something level 25.

This doesn't even take into account optimization or party makeup. A 4 level gap is bigger at level 1 than at 20.