Economics: Do you use it?

[Tarvus]

Mainly a question for the DMs out there, do you incorporate Economics into your games? Supply and Demand and all that?

It seems that many DMs do to some extent, if the plot references a shortage of blacksmiths, weapons and armor will be doubly as expensive. But how far do you take it?

My last DM had a certain totality to his setting (A heavily modified Faerun) and his incorporation of Economics added a fair bit of fun (in the same way Tippy-style thought exercises are fun) to our game.

The party (well, only 3 remaining characters now) started as bandits, as an easy way to level faster, and so when we came forward with the idea to target iron shipping specifically to raise prices - and thus get a much higher resale value, our DM was very receptive i.e. bonus role playing xp for my wizard.

Later, the DM took a page from our book and the BBEGs began killing clerics and healers, so healing potions became expensive and our cleric ended up being kidnapped (allowing a previously derailed plot to repair itself I might add).

This may become potentially unbalancing at higher levels however, as I thought about all those spells that required X gp of Something. Diamonds in particular. Now as DMs What Would You Do if players started buying/stealing diamond mines? They could then limit the flow out of diamonds, thus smaller diamonds would be worth more as the existing larger ones were consumed in jewelry or in spells. Now a gem that was worth enough for a Raise Dead spell becomes enough for a Resurrection. And due to the fact that the players OWN the mines, the diamonds are as cheap for them as the coal they are made from.
Is being a wizard now more powerful than ever?

How do you, or your DM handle it? Have you ever exploited economics? Mainly a thought but I'd like to know your ideas/thoughts/experiences.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Mainly a question for the DMs out there, do you incorporate Economics into your games? Supply and Demand and all that?

It seems that many DMs do to some extent, if the plot references a shortage of blacksmiths, weapons and armor will be doubly as expensive. But how far do you take it?

My last DM had a certain totality to his setting (A heavily modified Faerun) and his incorporation of Economics added a fair bit of fun (in the same way Tippy-style thought exercises are fun) to our game.

The party (well, only 3 remaining characters now) started as bandits, as an easy way to level faster, and so when we came forward with the idea to target iron shipping specifically to raise prices - and thus get a much higher resale value, our DM was very receptive i.e. bonus role playing xp for my wizard.

Later, the DM took a page from our book and the BBEGs began killing clerics and healers, so healing potions became expensive and our cleric ended up being kidnapped (allowing a previously derailed plot to repair itself I might add).

This may become potentially unbalancing at higher levels however, as I thought about all those spells that required X gp of Something. Diamonds in particular. Now as DMs What Would You Do if players started buying/stealing diamond mines? They could then limit the flow out of diamonds, thus smaller diamonds would be worth more as the existing larger ones were consumed in jewelry or in spells. Now a gem that was worth enough for a Raise Dead spell becomes enough for a Resurrection. And due to the fact that the players OWN the mines, the diamonds are as cheap for them as the coal they are made from.
Is being a wizard now more powerful than ever?

How do you, or your DM handle it? Have you ever exploited economics? Mainly a thought but I'd like to know your ideas/thoughts/experiences.

I do in my pirate game just because it makes them think about what port to go to rather then just the quickest port near buy to dump there load off.
so far they enjoy it.

If im doing a dungion crawl i don't though because the focus isn't on that...

If I'm doing a sandbox i try to keep a simulationist additude and try to do as much economics as possible.(ususaly its pritty simple though as economics isn't my strong point)

[bosssmiley]

Not personally (I tried for a long time, before giving the whole lot up as a snark hunt and settling into being a mead and wenches gamer), but I know a man who does.

D&D3's wealth-as-power model and "xx,000gp of..." make Adam Smith cry. Birthright made a decent fist of mercantilism and shipborne trade though.

[Meek]

I have the vaguest vestiges of Economics in my games, but generally nothing beyond an immediate situation (like a shortage or a surge in goods shifting prices; or the old "I buy X thing here and run across the border to sell it where it gets me more money"; simple things like that). If it gets too complicated players will probably ignore it and it's just more work for background dressing.

[Zeta Kai]

This may become potentially unbalancing at higher levels however, as I thought about all those spells that required X gp of Something. Diamonds in particular. Now as DMs What Would You Do if players started buying/stealing diamond mines? They could then limit the flow out of diamonds, thus smaller diamonds would be worth more as the existing larger ones were consumed in jewelry or in spells. Now a gem that was worth enough for a Raise Dead spell becomes enough for a Resurrection. And due to the fact that the players OWN the mines, the diamonds are as cheap for them as the coal they are made from.
Is being a wizard now more powerful than ever?

How do you, or your DM handle it? Have you ever exploited economics? Mainly a thought but I'd like to know your ideas/thoughts/experiences.

Well, the DM is still in control. If it became a concern, a new source of diamonds could be found that could flood the market, devaluing the diamond price & making it necessary to use a wheelbarrow of gems to raise dead. Just because the game uses market forces doesn't mean that the DM isn't still in control of said forces.

I use some minor economics in my games, but only when it's explicitly logical to do so, or it will serve the plot in some significant way. D&D is already so much of a numbers game that I don't see the need to drag economics into it more than necessary. Sometimes it really adds to verisimilitude, though, so it can be worth it.

[Vangor]

I don't invest myself heavily into Economics, but my players know if a question is asked which is interesting I can improvise this slightly. If anyone is interested in shifting the economies of towns and similar, certainly this is doable.

We have only had this as a make-shift side quest where one player, a fighter who purchased a forge and had good blacksmithing and craft weapon skills, employed the rogue to sabotage the iron of a rival blacksmith. Eventually, this became sabotaging mining operations while the Wizard would covertly purchase larger amounts of iron before this occurred. Through this, the group became the sole provider of metal goods to the Baron, and the Barony became the sole provider of metal goods to outlying regions.

As to the diamond question, OotS #677 makes this as a joke in the first panel, using rubies. Simply, the amount of worth of a diamond is an average in the current market, and no matter what happens to the value of the diamond in terms of literal gold pieces, the value of the diamond for the spell should remain static.

However, if the material components are being interpreted as a sacrifice, such as I imagine with Resurrection, where the 5,000gp stems from, this adjusts to current market prices because the sacrifice needs to remain equal. The small amount of bat guano and sulfur is probably not meant to be a sacrifice to cast Fireball as much as simply those are the items necessary.

[valadil]

Only sparingly. Some items may not be available in certain areas. But I don't do much with supply and demand.

That said, my next game is going to be heavily economic. Blame Neal Stephenson.

[Otodetu]

From a meta-perspective:
I guess as the value of diamonds is set by certain spells and effects it will never fall lower on the large scale.

In-game:
In a world flooded with diamonds it would be common knowledge that a shovel of a certain common crystalline gravel is enough to make a res spell work. (raw, unprocessed diamonds)

[JonestheSpy]

From a meta-perspective:
I guess as the value of diamonds is set by certain spells and effects it will never fall lower on the large scale.

In-game:
In a world flooded with diamonds it would be common knowledge that a shovel of a certain common crystalline gravel is enough to make a res spell work. (raw, unprocessed diamonds)

Yeah, I think that playing with economics can be a great storyteling device, but it shouldn't effect spellcasting. A "5000 gp diamond" should mean "A 14 carat (or whatever, I'm not a gem expert) diamond, which is valued at 5000 gp under standard game prices". Price fluctuations don't change the fact that the gem has to be of a certain quality to be effective.

Oh, and as for controlling the diamond mines, the DM should take a lesson from Tolkien if that gets troublesome - bad, bad things can be woken up by those who dig too deep...

[Asheram]

Oh, and as for controlling the diamond mines, the DM should take a lesson from Tolkien if that gets troublesome - bad, bad things can be woken up by those who dig too deep...

Ware the Stalagmen... and the Deep Crows...

[Mike_G]

Only when it's necessary. If the party is just cashing in loot from basic adveturing and buying the usual supplies, no biggy.

But, if the party floods the market of a small town with loot, the value goes down. I've had parties who think that half a dozen suits of magical mail should fetch 1/2 price at the one horse thorp.

You can't tow a wrecked T-72 to Bubba at the local scrapyard and expect him to have the need for, or cash to pay half of what the USSR did. He might offer a few bucks and fix it up to go offroading with a case of PBR, but don't pull out the pirce list and demand half like it's writ in stone.

[Green Bean]

In the games I've played economics is generally handwaved in most cases, except for the absolute basics (farming villages will not be able to afford to buy a +50 Sword of Awesome), and the occasional plot hook (everything's twice as expensive unless you can clear up this trade war with Neverwinter).

[Tarvus]

As to the diamond question, OotS #677 makes this as a joke in the first panel, using rubies.

That strip was the one that got me thinking.'

Simply, the amount of worth of a diamond is an average in the current market, and no matter what happens to the value of the diamond in terms of literal gold pieces, the value of the diamond for the spell should remain static.

Wouldn't this allow it to be exploited the other way? I.E. Buy 'em where they're cheap (Hmm I wonder if buying in bulk was thought of in medieval Europe :P) Or go to a culture like the one in Gulliver's Travels where diamonds have no value

However IF the material component is sacrifice based, which I could definitely under stand for divine spells, then the plan works *evil laugh* (But then what if its sacrifice from a PERSONAL point of view? That means that as Diamonds are cheap for you you need barrels of them. You could have a barbarian-style cleric that gives material components in skins or something . interesting theme for a feat, similar to snowcasting)

Just because the game uses market forces doesn't mean that the DM isn't still in control of said forces.

This is true, but in my case due to the way we've played so far, if the DM started ruling that it didn't work (flat out) it wrecks the suspension of disbelief. Especially since he has used it against us quite a lot (We sometimes think we need to invent the spell "Leomand's Secure Finances") it would almost be like playing a high magic world fighting liches and what not . . . where you can't play wizard or cleric types.

It not like the world is an economics simulator - I think he has got a table somewhere to decide what each shipping problem is for each town/village/region- but it does allow a certain familiarity for regions. Last session we got our hands on some art from a side-quest villain, and knew we needed to go to the City to the west rather than the one to the east. I suppose its a matter of choice for a DM, another example would be describing a horde complete with "*COUNTRY*ian Coins" and a "Beautiful Fresco of a Women" rather than "600GP in coins and art worth 237gp

[oxybe]

nope.

think about it this way... the party goes to a small idyllic village where the retired Mr.McWizard lives.

they had originally planned on having Mr.McWizard craft them a magic sword worth 5000 GP but he has an older one he's willing to part with at a discount. he's too old to use it effectively at this point in time and he just wants you darn kids and your adventuring lifestyle out of his hair. he's done with that.

so you buy off the sword for 4500 GP and go off on your way. whee!

you now have a small community of fifteen or twenty so families and a few unmarried folks with 4500 GP. that's a LOT of money. unfortunately, since everyone has too much money, prices go up... and up... and up... as the value of single GP starts going down...

and eventually it gets to the point where little timmy, the orphan who live in a shack a bit outside of town, can't afford the bread anymore to feed his starving brothers and sisters with the few coppers he's got.

good going "brave adventurers". you've flooded the local economy and jacked up the prices for commodities dooming poor timmy, tommy, tammy, theodore & thabitha to starving... just because you needed that sword to kill things.

jerks.

and that's why it's my belief that economy in D&D sucks and should be used abstractly. money goes in > ? > item/service comes out. pay no attention to the gnome behind the curtain.

[Thrawn183]

I had a party where I planned for them to have the choice of taking over their own keep on the frontier border of a country. The idea was that there were numerous ways their past missions would affect how easy it was to rebuild the thing.

Things like if they had taken the mission to help out this druid, he'd make the crops grow and dissuade animals from attacking caravans. If they had saved the logging camp from the orcs the lumber would have been cheaper (or at least not far more expensive), if they had helped the wizard guild procure more materials for making spell books there would be more wizards available to cast magical enchantments on the castle. I think there were a few more, but I can't really remember at this point.

[Korivan]

If you and the players have no interest in breaking the economy, its all well and good. I know in our games, we have a tendency to build fortresses, so economics play a big part in our games.

[LibraryOgre]

Economics works poorly in 3.x and higher. With AD&D, you can still make a pretense of economics, especially if you stick to a pretty simple formula:

1 SP = $1
1 GP = $20

That way, if your economics are screwed up, they're a real-world screwed up.

[taltamir]

You can't tow a wrecked T-72 to Bubba at the local scrapyard and expect him to have the need for, or cash to pay half of what the USSR did. He might offer a few bucks and fix it up to go offroading with a case of PBR, but don't pull out the pirce list and demand half like it's writ in stone.

While we are at it... why are you the only one in the world working at half wage?

Go to the local baron and offer to crafting him a magic suit of armor for full market price. Set up a shop that heroes from across the land can come to, and buy magic items at full price. Cast spells for others as a SERVICE for full price (as listed in the DMG).

Economics works poorly in 3.x and higher. With AD&D, you can still make a pretense of economics, especially if you stick to a pretty simple formula:

1 SP = $1
1 GP = $20

That way, if your economics are screwed up, they're a real-world screwed up.

Agreed, they just don't work... and the whole medieval statis isn't helping.

[Riffington]

While we are at it... why are you the only one in the world working at half wage?

You aren't. Half is just what you'll get if you're in a hurry to unload. You set up your special shop, and you get full price - but the DM has to decide when/where you get customers. Depending on the setting, that could be lots or it could be "about one per decade".

[taltamir]

You aren't. Half is just what you'll get if you're in a hurry to unload. You set up your special shop, and you get full price - but the DM has to decide when/where you get customers. Depending on the setting, that could be lots or it could be "about one per decade".

if it is once per decade then you are one of the super rare few who have access to such items... forget unloading it! hoard it! It gives you a huge advantage...

Take over a kingdom, recruit a strike force, equip them with magic items... epic win!

As a bonus, you can just get neigh infinite money FROM the kingdom you conquered. Which is easy as pie if magic of your current level is exclusive to your party.

[warrl]

While we are at it... why are you the only one in the world working at half wage?

You aren't. Not by any means.

Suppose that, as you travel through this town, you decide to make a magic sword. (And have all the necessary skills and powers among your party.)

You don't have connections among the suppliers - no family, no friends. You are buying a small quantity of metal ore. There's no reason to expect you'll be a repeat customer - heck, you're staying at an INN, not even looking for a house.

So, you pay retail.

Now you need a forge. You don't have one. You need to rent one. You'll have to pay the smith for disrupting his business. You'll be renting smith's tools too, so he charges you enough to cover the risk that you'll damage them - he knows NOTHING about your skill as a smith, so doesn't really trust you. And at various times during the process of making the sword there's probably waiting time; the regular smith would turn to another task on his list, you'll just sit there. In short, you are talking about the most expensive, effective-time-consuming manufacturing process.

Then, having made the sword, you look to sell it. You have no reputation as a smith, OR as a supplier. You aren't offering to be a regular supplier, you're selling just a single item. For that matter, unless you're in a good-size city there isn't that much demand for magic swords.

So you sell it to, in effect, a second-hand store or maybe a pawnshop.

Now if you want to go to an adequately large town to have a suitable market, buy houses and a forge, establish yourselves in the community, enter into a contract to buy a fair amount of metal ore & scrap per week, and establish a steady sales operation, maybe you can start buying wholesale and selling retail.

But then you aren't adventurers. You're higher-level townsfolk.

[herrhauptmann]

nope.

Spoiler

Show

think about it this way... the party goes to a small idyllic village where the retired Mr.McWizard lives.

they had originally planned on having Mr.McWizard craft them a magic sword worth 5000 GP but he has an older one he's willing to part with at a discount. he's too old to use it effectively at this point in time and he just wants you darn kids and your adventuring lifestyle out of his hair. he's done with that.

so you buy off the sword for 4500 GP and go off on your way. whee!

you now have a small community of fifteen or twenty so families and a few unmarried folks with 4500 GP. that's a LOT of money. unfortunately, since everyone has too much money, prices go up... and up... and up... as the value of single GP starts going down...

and eventually it gets to the point where little timmy, the orphan who live in a shack a bit outside of town, can't afford the bread anymore to feed his starving brothers and sisters with the few coppers he's got.

good going "brave adventurers". you've flooded the local economy and jacked up the prices for commodities dooming poor timmy, tommy, tammy, theodore & thabitha to starving... just because you needed that sword to kill things.

jerks.

and that's why it's my belief that economy in D&D sucks and should be used abstractly. money goes in > ? > item/service comes out. pay no attention to the gnome behind the curtain.

Even if he's the chief magistrate or mayor of some town, why is the wizard giving his money to the town? It was his sword that he sold, so it's now his money.
And if he's been running the town for a long time and is the sort to give his possessions away, he should already have helped out the 2 orphans in this town of 20 families.
Finally: Don't forget the DMG and also the campaign settings list the max price of an item that you can find in a given city/town. That max price is to prevent a sword with +8 enhancements being unloaded in a farming village of 200 souls and causing the chaos you've just described.
Finally, little towns like that are often less reliant on hard cash than a huge city. Hence the listings of mundane items like 'a chicken' or 'a cup of cinnamon'.

[random11]

When it comes to economics, I try to keep things as simple as possible.

I decided that each country in the continent has a different specialty, so the prices and quality change depending on where you are. But for most items, the prices remain the same regardless of where you are, and while not all items are available in any city, if they are, they follow the price rules of the country.

I never did anything that allowed the players to affect the prices in a country.

I do like to do one thing: The characters almost never find gold on monsters. Instead, they find items they can sell or trade for gold (dragon scales, griffin feathers...).
Not all cities will contain someone who will want all the items, and the players will need to search for buyers. There is also no guarantee that the buyer will take all their stock.

[AllisterH]

Economics works poorly in 3.x and higher. With AD&D, you can still make a pretense of economics, especially if you stick to a pretty simple formula:

1 SP = $1
1 GP = $20

That way, if your economics are screwed up, they're a real-world screwed up.

Er, that's not true about 3.x and higher.

Economics didn't make sense in either 1e or 2e either (basically, the typical adventure hall from even say an introductory module like Keep on the Borderland would SERIOUSLY screw up the economy of an entire nation.

Let's not even talk about the type of gold hoards that name level PCs would find..

[Bang]

The only time I didn't hand-wave it, I was absolutely torn apart by a player who was down on the topic. I'm still shellshocked by the memory of that campaign.


On another note, every time I see this thread title, I hear Samuel Jackson's voice:
"Economics, Mother****er: Do You Use It?"

[oxybe]

Even if he's the chief magistrate or mayor of some town, why is the wizard giving his money to the town? It was his sword that he sold, so it's now his money.
And if he's been running the town for a long time and is the sort to give his possessions away, he should already have helped out the 2 orphans in this town of 20 families.
Finally: Don't forget the DMG and also the campaign settings list the max price of an item that you can find in a given city/town. That max price is to prevent a sword with +8 enhancements being unloaded in a farming village of 200 souls and causing the chaos you've just described.
Finally, little towns like that are often less reliant on hard cash than a huge city. Hence the listings of mundane items like 'a chicken' or 'a cup of cinnamon'.

unless of course, you don't want to run the game using the 3rd ed DMG world creation charts or that not everyone knows of their existance since they're not using 3rd ed rules.

economy + D&D is usually a headache. especially if you're not an economist and trying to make sense of it.

that wizard i described might horde his money like dragon, or he might start investing it in his community. either way, the chance that the local community has a sudden influx of cash injected into it is VERY high.

as for the commodities... i thought that was for helping your wizard or evil nature-hating druid find out the profit they make when they cast "flesh to salt" on an average holstein cow using a chunk of salt for the material component and selling it's equivalent mass of salt back to the merchants...? either way, it's easier for me to say "GNOME! CURTAIN! IGNOOOOOORE!" and give them a wag of the finger then to grind my brain over it.

[Tarvus]

On another note, every time I see this thread title, I hear Samuel Jackson's voice:
"Economics, Mother****er: Do You Use It ?"

Well. . . yeah, of course. Sorry about that

[LibraryOgre]

Er, that's not true about 3.x and higher.

That's why I specified ADVANCED Dungeons and Dragons.

Economics didn't make sense in either 1e or 2e either (basically, the typical adventure hall from even say an introductory module like Keep on the Borderland would SERIOUSLY screw up the economy of an entire nation.

Let's not even talk about the type of gold hoards that name level PCs would find..

What happens, however, is that you have usable real-world models.

"How much does it cost to buy a good-sized chunk of land?"

Well, with AD&D, you can fairly easily divide the cost in dollars by 20 and call it gold.

"How much does it cost per month in upkeep?"

Well, figure food and at about 20gp/month (~$400, if you're eating out all the time) and inns at 3-7gp ($60-$140) a night, and you can guesstimate that, for someone living on the road, it's going to run 110-230gp if they're eating at taverns and sleeping in rooms at the inn.

[ericgrau]

This may become potentially unbalancing at higher levels however, as I thought about all those spells that required X gp of Something. Diamonds in particular. Now as DMs What Would You Do if players started buying/stealing diamond mines? They could then limit the flow out of diamonds, thus smaller diamonds would be worth more as the existing larger ones were consumed in jewelry or in spells. Now a gem that was worth enough for a Raise Dead spell becomes enough for a Resurrection. And due to the fact that the players OWN the mines, the diamonds are as cheap for them as the coal they are made from.
Is being a wizard now more powerful than ever?

It's called the DeBeers monopoly. They're the reason all those worthless diamonds cost so much (and give them profit), and why it's actually historically inaccurate to list diamonds among the high-value gemstones in a pseudo-medieval game.