On the Dangers of Lightning Maces: A Dissertation

[Doc Roc]

So it's incredibly rare for me to take something related to the Test of Spite and turn it into a separate thread. But recently, something came up that I had never seen before.


Now, the... relevant components of Olo's build boil down to Disciple of Dispater and lightning maces combined with an aptitude weapon and a splitting weapon, as well as some iron bolts. A fundamentally elegant build, one that resulted in the long over-due banning of lightning maces. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the single most fantastic way to bow out in a PvP match ever devised. Here it is.

[DragoonWraith]

Hahahaha, awesome. Thanks for sharing that.

[Signmaker]

Good times, Olo. Good times.

[Zaq]

Tide, in your professional opinion, is there any middle ground to Lightning Mace? If you use it without an Aptitude weapon and a crit-booster, it's pretty much a wasted feat (with three feats of prereqs, no less), but to use it as Olo used it is, indeed, banworthy. Is it one of those things that's simply useless until broken, or is there a happy medium?

[ex cathedra]

I'm of the opinion that it's fairly mild, and not broken, without things like splitting and Disciple of Dispater. Keen Aptitude Kukris aren't that problematic, comparatively.

[Zaq]

I'm of the opinion that it's fairly mild, and not broken, without things like splitting and Disciple of Dispater. Keen Aptitude Kukris aren't that problematic, comparatively.

What about one or the other, but not both?

[PhoenixRivers]

The problem with scaling percentages is that +/- 10% can mean a world of difference.

If you auto-confirm, with a 50% chance of critting, you're going to add a lot of attacks.

Let's assume 10 attacks, by the numbers.
{table=header]Chance to Crit | Number of total attacks granted (typical)
10% | 11.1
20% | 12.4
30% | 13.9
40% | 15.6
50% | 19.5
60% | 23.4
70% | 31.46[/table]

That's without splitting. With a splitting weapon, the chances go up nearly exponentially. With 10 attacks and a 50% crit chance, the run would likely hit at least 100 attacks, and quite possibly 588.

The problem is that dealing with this method of scaling is that it goes from 0-100 on an exponential curve. The "balance" window is infinitely small, on that curve.

[ex cathedra]

What about one or the other, but not both?

Both break it effortlessly.

Splitting obviously doubles your attacks.
And your attacks granted from threats.
And so forth.

DoD 8 offers massive crit chance stacking, and quickly leads to nearly-infinite numbers.

[Zaq]

That's a shame, really. I like the concept, mechanically, of crits giving extra attacks... it reminds me of the Guild Wars Assassin, with their focus on critical hits and their lead-offhand-dual attack progression. It's too bad that you can't really do that in D&D without A) sucking or B) having your turns take fifteen minutes minimum.

[Doc Roc]

Phoenix is correct, particularly as there are a couple ways to considerably exacerbate the problem. There's no reasonable place for Lightning Maces in a game with even a moderate degree of optimization.

Gentle use makes it explode. Lightning Maces is one of those rare bans that I have no second thoughts about, and really can't see a way around banning. It's obviously the culprit, it's a unique ability, and it has effectively no legitimate use unless you are extremely familiar with the probabilities involved.

[PhoenixRivers]

The only way I could think of to balance it would be to not allow more bonus attacks in that method per round than you could normally make on a full attack.

So if you're a dual wielder with 11 base attack? No more than 3 bonus attacks per weapon from Lightning Maces.

That, or reword aptitude to only mean feats which require a specific weapon to be selected when chosen (Weapon Focus, yes. Weapon Style feats, no).

In other words, a cap, or removing weapons with a wide threat range from the table (which also removes ranged weapons, and thus, splitting).

[Eldariel]

I think fixing Aptitude is really the best way to go about it. Lightning Maces is balanced around the fact that the core weapon has base-20 critical range. At that point, even Weapon Master can only get it to 17-20/x2, or 17-20/x4 with the Resin. That's mere 20% chance of critting with utmost focus of all your feats on the build (Weapon Master is incredibly expensive to enter). It would eventually (level 20) be possible to reach 15-20 with a combination of Disciple of Dispater and Weapon Master (if reading the abilities as stacking, only), but no further than that.

Aptitude weapon bypasses many feats' and abilities' internal safety net by making them available for any weapons (including Splitting weapons which is the biggest problem in this case in combination with Lightning Maces) and allowing multiple different weapons' exclusive abilities to be combined (also making a lot of formerly useful weapons quite obsolete). It is fundamentally a very dangerous ability simply because the game design does not take it into account.


Also, I think this particular fight was a perfect example of why even Big Damage Martialists are not on caster tier.

[PhoenixRivers]

In all fairness, he had a low will save. With a higher will save he'd have fared a lot better. I doubt he'd have won, but I view a single effective trick as a gimmick, by and large. This was a very powerful gimmick, but, this character relied on very specific circumstances to win. Without the trick, the build goes to about Tier 4 in power.

This was primarily a gimmick martialist against a Well rounded caster focusing on action economy, and, more importantly, precision of action economy. I may only get 1-2 turns per round. But they're in response to your action. In effect, they can be used to shut down the opponent, and then counter.

The whole idea was to evade, avoid, or disrupt the offense, and hit up the offense only after that occurred.

[Eldariel]

In all fairness, he had a low will save. With a higher will save he'd have fared a lot better. I doubt he'd have won, but I view a single effective trick as a gimmick, by and large. This was a very powerful gimmick, but, this character relied on very specific circumstances to win. Without the trick, the build goes to about Tier 4 in power.

This is same as any powerful martial build, even on the TO level; you can generally get one incredibly strong attack in your bag and beyond that, you'll be lacking. Hulking Hurlers, The Übercharger, etc. can devastate practically anything with a single attack, but that requires the attack connecting.

And yeah, he'd have fared better without a clear weakness (though it's hard to cover all weaknesses while investing so much on making the offense work), but I do not think he really had a realistic chance at winning. Sure, if he connects, he wins, but connecting against immediate action movement and two-action turns is just hard.

[PhoenixRivers]

This is same as any powerful martial build, even on the TO level; you can generally get one incredibly strong attack in your bag and beyond that, you'll be lacking. Hulking Hurlers, The Übercharger, etc. can devastate practically anything with a single attack, but that requires the attack connecting.

And yeah, he'd have fared better without a clear weakness (though it's hard to cover all weaknesses while investing so much on making the offense work), but I do not think he really had a realistic chance at winning. Sure, if he connects, he wins, but connecting against immediate action movement and two-action turns is just hard.

You need a surprise. Start low threat attacks to suck out the counter, then something like a belt of battle to overwhelm the one defense move such a caster has. Because if someone is in attack position after that one immediate turn, then it's game over.

With strong enough defenses to last a few rounds, it's difficult, but possible.

[Eldariel]

You need a surprise. Start low threat attacks to suck out the counter, then something like a belt of battle to overwhelm the one defense move such a caster has. Because if someone is in attack position after that one immediate turn, then it's game over.

With strong enough defenses to last a few rounds, it's difficult, but possible.

The best way to go about it is obviously to make two lethal attack chains in a row; first one will provoke the counter, hopefully the second one connects for lethal. Still, that depends on the ability to re-establish LoE after the opponent's counter, and no contingent defenses blocking the second one.

And yeah, obviously the martialist needs some basic degree of defenses of his own (at least high enough saves not to die to a SoL and enough HP/high enough Touch AC/auxillary deflection abilities to not die to the first nuke thrown at his way). Still, defensive focus practically guarantees martialist's loss since martial character without an effort placed in attack won't really have enough firepower to even threaten a win with one full-round.

[PhoenixRivers]

Well, at the levels we're talking, a shot for 150 damage will do it. 300 will kill most anything in the challenge. So once you get beyond that, it's really just bragging rights.

I mean, a solid offense is needed, but if you can outlast a caster's entire repetoire in arena, you've pretty much got yourself a win. There's not so much on the "run away, try again tomorrow" tactic.

For a Psion burning through power points with a schism up? You're lookin at 5 rounds. For a mage? about 5-6 effective rounds.

[Eldariel]

Well, at the levels we're talking, a shot for 150 damage will do it. 300 will kill most anything in the challenge. So once you get beyond that, it's really just bragging rights.

I mean, a solid offense is needed, but if you can outlast a caster's entire repetoire in arena, you've pretty much got yourself a win. There's not so much on the "run away, try again tomorrow" tactic.

For a Psion burning through power points with a schism up? You're lookin at 5 rounds. For a mage? about 5-6 effective rounds.

It seems like that would be a failure on the mage build's part if he's unable with his whole daily allotment of spells to kill a non-caster.

[PhoenixRivers]

It seems like that would be a failure on the mage build's part if he's unable with his whole daily allotment of spells to kill a non-caster.

Well, if all the saves are strong, the HP is good, the AC is such that a +30 or so hits touch AC on a 20, and there are miss chances?

That's the kinda defense that has a shot. I've seen some charisma focused builds that can do that, along with have an offense that's not too shabby.

[Leon]

Nuts.
Here i was hoping for a relation to your IK thread and some horrible mishap with a Storm chamber and a mace...

[woodenbandman]

Well, if all the saves are strong, the HP is good, the AC is such that a +30 or so hits touch AC on a 20, and there are miss chances?

That's the kinda defense that has a shot. I've seen some charisma focused builds that can do that, along with have an offense that's not too shabby.

I usually hold a summon or two in reserve, and some things with no save like Solid Fog or Web (effectively you're still screwed if you save).

Also Extradimensional Spell takes care of miss chances, though that's admittedly not on the caster's shortlist, but Howling Chain and Force Missiles often are.

[Doc Roc]

Nuts.
Here i was hoping for a relation to your IK thread and some horrible mishap with a Storm chamber and a mace...

Well, I was able to deliver the horrible mishap portion. :)

[Draz74]

I think fixing Aptitude is really the best way to go about it.

QFT. Lightning Maces or no Lightning Maces, there are plenty of ways to break Aptitude weapons the way they're currently written.

[PhoenixRivers]

I usually hold a summon or two in reserve, and some things with no save like Solid Fog or Web (effectively you're still screwed if you save).

Also Extradimensional Spell takes care of miss chances, though that's admittedly not on the caster's shortlist, but Howling Chain and Force Missiles often are.

Freedom of Movement trumps most move related spells, and is available in spell and ring form. Summons can be more useful, but if they've got saves and AC you can't scratch, chances are the summon won't fare well either.

As for Force Missiles/Howling Chain? Generally not on it enough to kill someone.

I've built a level 15 non-caster with a low save of 40, touch AC in the 60-70 range, perma FOM, immunity to mind effects, and attacks at +40 for 80-100 damage. Those kinda things are hard to crack. Not impossible, but most standard spell loadouts have a heck of a time. HP were only 103 or so, but it had several hundred HP of lay on hands healing.

[sofawall]

QFT. Lightning Maces or no Lightning Maces, there are plenty of ways to break Aptitude weapons the way they're currently written.

High Sword, Low Axe comes to mind as well. Not Lightning Maces broken, but still a pain to fight.

[Starbuck_II]

Since the guy killed himself I don't think that makes it broken. Now if he can killed the opposition then we might worry.

[Radar]

Freedom of Movement trumps most move related spells, and is available in spell and ring form. Summons can be more useful, but if they've got saves and AC you can't scratch, chances are the summon won't fare well either.

As for Force Missiles/Howling Chain? Generally not on it enough to kill someone.

I've built a level 15 non-caster with a low save of 40, touch AC in the 60-70 range, perma FOM, immunity to mind effects, and attacks at +40 for 80-100 damage. Those kinda things are hard to crack. Not impossible, but most standard spell loadouts have a heck of a time. HP were only 103 or so, but it had several hundred HP of lay on hands healing.

I'm not keen in PvP, but:
Force Missile + Arcane Fusion (and/or Greater) + metamagic = MMM

Alternatively 15 rounds of Enlarged (just to be on the safe side) Fell drain Magic missiles come to mind.

Still your build is a walking fortress.

[NEO|Phyte]

You know, it occurs to me that that fight may not have been properly resolved.

Lightning Maces triggers extra attacks on a critical THREAT. Death Urge'd people don't make attack rolls, so they cannot GET a critical threat, they simply :edit: deal damage as though they crit themself.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Awesome. Simply awesome.

Although he still didn't beat the Ubercharger record, which is, depending on which version you're looking at, anywhere from the normal Ubercharger, which gets around 66,000 damage to my old immensely complicated improvised weapon build that tops out at around 8.64x10^13 damage. Roughly.

[Draz74]

You know, it occurs to me that that fight may not have been properly resolved.

Lightning Maces triggers extra attacks on a critical THREAT. Death Urge'd people don't make attack rolls, so they cannot GET a critical threat, they simply :edit: deal damage as though they crit themself.

Good point; also, PbP timing makes things a little screwy. Would the Psion really have used his immediate action option before a single arrow attack had hit him, if he hadn't been able to foresee (due to Forum technicalities) how many more attacks were coming before the end of the round and how much damage they were going to do? I'm guessing "no," if the attacks had happened sequentially, the way they would have in a scrupulously-run face-to-face game.