Question about 3.5 weapons

[Alysar]

Is there any reason why a spear couldn't be used as a double weapon? Using the off-hand like a quarterstaff? Or even taking an actual quarterstaff and putting a spear tip on one end?

I'm starting up a new character, lvl 3 Druid, and I'm trying to figure out a good weapon for him. I wanted to get a double weapon, but something with a better than a quarterstaff. Either more damage or a wider crit range. I wanted a double weapon because I only wanted to spend money for one enchantment instead of two.

I found a Double Scimitar in the Arms & Equipment Guide, but unfortunately it was an exotic weapon and I'd need to take a feat for it. For the record, if you are proficient in a weapon, you aren't automatically proficient in the double version, are you?

[PId6]

Well, my first question is, why do you want a double weapon?

[Eloel]

You need to enchant both sides of your double weapon seperately - you can't save up on much cash when using double-weapon instead of TWF.

Hope that clarifies stuff.

[jiriku]

I'm pretty sure the double spear is in one fo the splatbooks somewhere. Even if you don't have the proper book, a double weapon that does spear damage on each end is totally balanced for an exotic weapon...you're not significantly changing the balance of the weapon either, so I think you could reasonably still throw it as a normal spear.

[Keshay]

Getting a double weapon to avoid needing two enchantments won't work. Each side needs its own seperate enchantment.

Wow that was a quick 4 posts before I finished typing.

[paddyfool]

I wanted a double weapon because I only wanted to spend money for one enchantment instead of two.

Unfortunately, you have to enchant each end of a double weapon seperately at full cost. The only real advantage to double weapons is that it allows a person to switch between two-weapon fighting and two-handed fighting at will. Assuming, of course, that they have the right feats to do both well (not easy to do).

On the whole, a druid shouldn't worry too much about their weaponry anyway - after level 5, it won't matter too much. And they certainly shouldn't pay for enchanted weaponry if they have any option to pick up stuff which enhances their casting. One of the better answers if you're starting out as a druid and want a decent weapon is to get a quarterstaff, prepare a couple castings of shillelagh, and wield it as a two-handed weapon. Not great on the action economy, but once you start hitting, your opponents will know it.

[PId6]

A quarterstaff can do immense damage. Just look into the spells Shillelagh and Spikes/Brambles (SpC). Eventually, that becomes double crit range, +2 to attack, +10 to damage, and damage as two size categories larger (1d6 medium becomes 2d6).

[RagnaroksChosen]

plus that kinda defeats the purpose of the spear as it is a thrusty type weapon and a quarterstaff is a blungion type weapon... so the movements are even more odd.

I'd say no.. closest thing you can get to that is a long spear with the spinnign helberd feat or what ever the shorthalf feat thing is.

[Telonius]

One of the Real-World Weapons people might have a better explanation of it than I do, but I'm under the impression that a spear is not designed to be used as a double weapon. In D&D terms, every Double Weapon, except for Quarterstaff, is an Exotic weapon. It's specifically designed to be used that way, and you need a specific Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat in order to use it.

If I were DMming, I would rule that you also can't just pop a spearhead on and off of a quarterstaff. It takes a little bit more than that to really secure it to the wood. I certainly wouldn't allow it to be considered a masterwork spear (a prerequisite for being Magic) if you did that regularly without an appropriate craft check.

[sonofzeal]

plus that kinda defeats the purpose of the spear as it is a thrusty type weapon and a quarterstaff is a blungion type weapon... so the movements are even more odd.

I'd say no.. closest thing you can get to that is a long spear with the spinnign helberd feat or what ever the shorthalf feat thing is.

Have you ever seen someone practice spear? Half the time, it's basically treated as quarterstaff with a pointy thing at the end. Here's a good example, where he uses it both ways. A good spear-user is perfectly capable of doing quarterstaff-like strikes with either end.

[Blackfang108]

plus that kinda defeats the purpose of the spear as it is a thrusty type weapon and a quarterstaff is a blungion type weapon... so the movements are even more odd.

I'd say no.. closest thing you can get to that is a long spear with the spinnign helberd feat or what ever the shorthalf feat thing is.

That would be a Halberd with the Spinning Halberd feat. It's right there in the name...

[Fhaolan]

One of the Real-World Weapons people might have a better explanation of it than I do, but I'm under the impression that a spear is not designed to be used as a double weapon.

Who spake the name, and summon us?

Depends on the specific RL spear. The problem being that in RL the term 'spear' covers a *lot* of ground, all the way from short javelins (sometimes called darts), all the way up to lances and pikes. Also RL quarterstaves tended to be a lot longer and thicker than people think. Most people are confusing quarterstaves with of bo staves. On average quarterstaves were a bit bigger, heavier, and whatnot, but D&D doesn't make a differentiation. Really kind of irrelevant to the discussion, but I felt like sharing.

However, the type of spear fighting the OP is looking for is very similar to Greek and Viking hewing styles where sheild + spear was a standard, but not exactly common fighting style, and using the butt-end of the spear as a bludgeon was part of that style. These spears tended to be on the shorter side for a spear (5'-7'), robust (somewhat thicker than the throwing spears), and did not have the barrel-cut that throwing spears usually had (meaning throwing spears tended to taper to either end from the nominal grip point, while hewing spears were a bit more uniform.) Such spears also tended to have a metal butt-cap to add a bit of mass to that bludgeoning strike. Not as much as say a light mace, but enough to justify the quarterstaff damage. Throwing one tends to be an exercise in frustration, because the range is cut down a lot with the thicker, uniform shaft.

Personally, I'd say you could have a specifically-made hewing spear that you could use two-handed as a spear/staff double weapon, but you'd have to give up the throwing range and it would be considered a martial weapon. Using this weapon one-handed (to free up the other hand for the shield) was only used by experts, so that would definately justify an exotic proficiency I think.

[taltamir]

a spear is a thin LONG and light stick with a bladed tip.
A quarterstaff is a heavy, thick stick... potentially with metal studs on BOTH ENDS and some metal in the middle.

spear:
http://www.resvrgam.com/tlp/sow/file...apon-lance.jpg

Quarterstaff (non metallic, low end):
http://sow.thelostprophecies.com/fil...arterstaff.jpg

If you stick a knife on the end of the quarterstaff, you will just get a weapon that can be used as an unbalanced quarterstaff or a short, stubby, unwieldy spear.

Also:
0. In DnD, a double weapon is just dual wielding two weapons that happen to be connected.

1. Double weapons need each side enchanted seperately. (since each is considered a SEPARATE WEAPON)

2. If you a proficient with a weapon, you are NOT proficient with a double version of it (making this even WORSE than dual wielding, where you are), the double version is always exotic and NOBODY is automatically proficient in it (it takes a feat PER each individual kind of double weapon, they all suck).

3. Dual wielding (and as a result, double weapons) suck bad in DnD (and in real life too). They look cool, but are horribly unwieldy. In DnD you get one extra attack, but a terrible penalty to your "to hit", even if you spend a ton of feats on it to mitigate the penalties, they are still there, and you wasted feats that could go on increasing damage and to hit and crit. And maybe more feats for increasing defense and giving extra attacks, all of which not worth it for one SINGLE extra attack (for more you need an extra feat per extra attack) that requires a second enchanting and is horribly weaker...

Bottom line... never, ever, unless you absolutely have to for RP, use "double wield"...

The sorta exception might be the ranger, I think it gets all those dual wield stuff for "free"... still, just play a warrior and focus on single wield instead... preferably a two handed weapon (1.5x multiplier to your damage). As the multiplier to damage retains its usefulness as you level up. A double weapon / two weapons do not, and just becomes more of a liability as you have to sink up more feats into it.

A dual weapon in D&D gives you ALL of the penalties of Dual wielding, and then some new extra penalties unique to it. (I did not say "none of the benefits" because there ARE no benefits to dual wielding). Your only real choices are:
1. Weapon and shield
2. Two handed weapon

[dragonfan6490]

a spear is a thin LONG and light stick with a bladed tip.
A quarterstaff is a heavy, thick stick... potentially with metal studs on BOTH ENDS and some metal in the middle.

spear:
http://www.resvrgam.com/tlp/sow/file...apon-lance.jpg

Quarterstaff (non metallic, low end):
http://sow.thelostprophecies.com/fil...arterstaff.jpg

If you stick a knife on the end of the quarterstaff, you will just get a weapon that can be used as an unbalanced quarterstaff or a short, stubby, unwieldy spear.

Tell that to the Chinese, who used their spears as quarterstaves and vice-versa. A spear can quite easily be used in quarterstaff style and a quarterstaff may be used as a spear. And those pictures look like fantasy renditions rather than historical recreations.

[Alysar]

Actually, it's all moot.

I went through so many revisions and considered so many future PrCs (like Daggerspell Shaper) that I didn't notice that what I ended up with didn't have enough of a DEX for two weapon fighting.

I went with a masterwork scimitar and a large wooden shield. By the way, Leather Scale armor is pretty damn cool.

I took Weapon Focus (scimitar). When I start fighting in Wild Shape full time I'll use the retraining rules to swap that out for Weapon Focus (natural attack)

[jokey665]

I took Weapon Focus (scimitar). When I start fighting in Wild Shape full time I'll use the retraining rules to swap that out for Weapon Focus (natural attack)

Erm... I'm relatively sure you have to specify the natural attack for Weapon Focus. i.e. Weapon Focus (Bite) or (Claw)

[Fhaolan]

a spear is a thin LONG and light stick with a bladed tip.
A quarterstaff is a heavy, thick stick... potentially with metal studs on BOTH ENDS and some metal in the middle.

spear:
http://www.resvrgam.com/tlp/sow/file...apon-lance.jpg

Quarterstaff (non metallic, low end):
http://sow.thelostprophecies.com/fil...arterstaff.jpg

If you stick a knife on the end of the quarterstaff, you will just get a weapon that can be used as an unbalanced quarterstaff or a short, stubby, unwieldy spear.

Errr. No, not really. As I said before, D&D doesn't differentiate between the quarterstave (reaching as much as 7-8' long, and I've seen up to a surprising 2" diameter) and a bo stave (approx. 5-6' long, 1 1/4" dia stick). As far as D&D is concerned they're the same thing. Hewing spears staves fall well within those two extremes, and as they are not meant to be thrown can have a robust stave. The butt-cap usually weights the spear so that the balance point isn't quite as far down the shaft as normal, but it will still be weighted towards the spearpoint. However, if you can't use a stave as a two-ended weapon unless it balances in the middle, you have no business going anywhere near short-shaft poleweapons in general. Using the butt-cap as a secondary bludgeoning tool is a standard technique used by halberds, poleaxes, spears, etc. that are detailed in period medieval and renaissance fight manuals, as well as in the handed down techniques in many of the Oriental martial arts. Most of the techniques from the various schools (Eastern and Western) do coincide reasonably well, with a good amount of variation that demonstrates the viability of the techniques.

Using it as a one-handed weapon in the Western world however, is more like speculation than archeology. We can piece together how it *could* be done through experimentation and drawing from Eastern martial arts, but the best documentation we have for the western one-handed spear techniques is on Greek pottery and Nordic/Celtic artwork, all of which is... artistic and easily misinterperted. However, as I said there are martial art schools which do one-handed work with similarly off-center-balance long poleweapons, but they are more likely to switch back and forth from two-hand to one-hand work than remain one-handed which would be necessary to work spear-and-shield like that.

[Alysar]

Erm... I'm relatively sure you have to specify the natural attack for Weapon Focus. i.e. Weapon Focus (Bite) or (Claw)

Claw then. I talking to someone in a chat room about this and they referred to it as Weapon Focus (natural weapon). I'll check with the DM

Or swap it for Natural Spell instead of waiting for 6th level. Maybe take Multiattack at 6th level (I doubt it will be a problem. In the last game I took Fly-By Attack. I was playing as a halfling. The feat only came into effect while I was using his Winged Boots)

I wanted to only take druid to fifth level before multiclassing to Master of Many Forms and Warshaper, but I want Enhance Wild Shape (a 4th level spell from the Spell Compendium), so I'll need a couple more levels of Druid.(unless anyone knows a way for me to get it early If it helps, I have a WIS of 17 which will become 18 next level. Maybe get it put on an item or something).

Here's what I came up with

http://itoh.acalltoduty.com/oracle/view.php?id=331

No, I didn't make a mistake with the number of feats. Our system gives you one additional free feat from a limited list at level 1.

[Yora]

In D&D terms, every Double Weapon, except for Quarterstaff, is an Exotic weapon. It's specifically designed to be used that way, and you need a specific Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat in order to use it.

Every double weapon except for quarterstaff would not work in real life.

[Fhaolan]

Every double weapon except for quarterstaff would not work in real life.

As drawn, pretty much. However, if you take some liberties with the concepts and reimagine them, sometimes you can get them to work. Not *well*, mind you, and usually you end up with a 'martial arts weapon' that would only be useful for training, katas, and action movies, but at least you're not killing yourself just by swinging it. The big one is the dire flail. Get rid of the pole, and have it just be two mace heads on either end of a long chain, and you can imagine it showing up in a movie sometime. The spiked chain becomes one of those with morningstar heads instead. Most of the rest of the double weapons become quarterstaves (on the short side when needed) with whatever blades/heads on either end, and so on.