Unarmed Strike debate

[Sinfire Titan]

Because horses don't stay dead in Ravenloft.

By RAW, they don't stack. Monk's Belt is worded as "a Monk of 5 levels higher", same as Superior Unarmed Strike so they both are based on your actual Monk-level, which doesn't change making them overlap. But as I said, ask DM.

Stacking only applies to rolls and checks, not to a static effect such as level.

Regardless, they both apply to your base level so while the word "stack" isn't the reason they don't stack in the traditional D&D sense, in the English meaning of the word it's still accurate. They are both worded in a fashion that they are applied to the same number and don't notice each others' existence. It's the same reason you can't stack Monkey Grip & Strongarm Bracers on a Medium creature to wield a Huge weapon with the same handedness as the Medium version.

But it isn't a number. Size category can be measured by a number (one size category larger than your current size category), but your unarmed strike damage can't because it is a variable number (Xd8).

It's like saying Practiced Spellcaster doesn't stack with the Orange Ioun Stone. They are separate sources, they have a similar effect in different values, and they've been accepted as stacking. Same circumstance, different effect. Monk levels measure your Unarmed damage size, caster level determines your Fireball's damage dice.

If SuS and Monk's Belts don't stack, then the same should be applied to the Orange Ioun Stone and Practiced Spellcaster.

Your Monk-level can be measured by a number and it's what's affected. Note how caster level increases just say the CL increases by 1, while Monk's Belt states your effective Monk-level for determining Unarmed Strike Damage is 5 higher (same as SUS).

But that's a double standard. Note that everything that affects CL usually states it doesn't affect your spells/day or spells/known. Its the same thing in a different suit.

SuS says +4 to Monk level, BTW. And Practiced Spellcaster is +4. Does Practiced Spellcaster not stack with Divination Spellpower (Unseen Seer's class feature) if the situation allows it? Why is it that the same type of effect (an increase to effective level for determining an ability) not stack in one case, but does in the other? What makes the two different?

Got a reference for that?

Both of them make your Monk level some number of levels "higher". Not "higher than your base/actual level", just "higher". The default meaning for that in the English language unless context clearly indicates otherwise is "higher than without this", which would make them stack.

[RagnaroksChosen]

So the argument is if they stack or not?
That's pritty stupid i would say they stack.. why not there both untyped bonuses :)

[Eldariel]

But that's a double standard. Note that everything that affects CL usually states it doesn't affect your spells/day or spells/known. Its the same thing in a different suit.

SuS says +4 to Monk level, BTW. And Practiced Spellcaster is +4. Does Practiced Spellcaster not stack with Divination Spellpower (Unseen Seer's class feature) if the situation allows it? Why is it that the same type of effect (an increase to effective level for determining an ability) not stack in one case, but does in the other? What makes the two different?

The two core examples for CL increases read as follows:
Beads of Karma: "Wearer casts his spells at +4 caster level. Effect lasts 10 minutes."
Orange Prism Ioun Stone: "+1 caster level"

Practiced Spellcaster is a bit wonky due to the wording: "Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4." The wording is still "increases by 4" though rather than "treated as 4 levels higher though" so it IS a real increase rather than a virtual one.

Monk's Belt on the other hand:
"The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher." You are treated as a Monk of 5 levels higher for those purposes; there's the implied "than your level". It doesn't modify your level, it just gives you a bonus based on your level, while those CL boosts quite explicitly actually increase your caster level.


Also, I'm deleting my posts on the matter from the original thread since they're repeated here and the OP wished for the discussion to not happen in that thread.

[Tyndmyr]

*shrug* Its arguable....but I say, let the monks have it. Its not as if it matters much anyhow.

[Sinfire Titan]

The two core examples for CL increases read as follows:
Beads of Karma: "Wearer casts his spells at +4 caster level. Effect lasts 10 minutes."
Orange Prism Ioun Stone: "+1 caster level"

And those stack, right? Despite being the same bonus, they stack because they are different sources.

Practiced Spellcaster is a bit wonky due to the wording: "Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4." The wording is still "increases by 4" though rather than "treated as 4 levels higher though" so it IS a real increase rather than a virtual one.

And yet this "real" increase disappears if your CL ever equals your HD. Whereas the Monk's Belt and SuS do not.

Monk's Belt on the other hand:
"The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher." You are treated as a Monk of 5 levels higher for those purposes; there's the implied "than your level". It doesn't modify your level, it just gives you a bonus based on your level, while those CL boosts quite explicitly actually increase your caster level.

I think you have that inverted. The Candle and the Stone are a bonus to CL, this is an increase to your effective Monk level. But those are the same thing, right? And because the Monk's Belt and SuS are a bonus to the same thing from two different sources (Unarmed damage boosts from a feat and a magic item), they should stack.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Monk's Belt on the other hand:
"The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher." You are treated as a Monk of 5 levels higher for those purposes; there's the implied "than your level". It doesn't modify your level, it just gives you a bonus based on your level, while those CL boosts quite explicitly actually increase your caster level.

Would not the second effect see that for the supposes of Unarmed strikes the monks levels are treated as x amount higher. I mean its being treated as higher why would they not stack?

[Demons_eye]

Raw? No. They said so in the FAQ give me a minute to find it.

Found it: Page 21 Here right side.

I would say let them stack. Monks need that stuff.

[Sinfire Titan]

Raw? No. They said so in the FAQ give me a minute to find it.

Found it: Page 21 Here right side.

I would say let them stack. Monks need that stuff.

The FAQ isn't RAW though. Its someone's interpretation of the RAW. Again, I cite the stacking rules:

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession).

SuS and Monk's Belt are untyped bonuses from different sources (even though the stacking rules should not be applicable seeing as they are not a roll or a check but an ability based on your level).

[Eldariel]

And yet this "real" increase disappears if your CL ever equals your HD. Whereas the Monk's Belt and SuS do not.

No, the real increase is simply capped by your HD. You get an increase equal to the difference between the HD and your CL, as per wording of the ability.

I think you have that inverted. The Candle and the Stone are a bonus to CL, this is an increase to your effective Monk level. But those are the same thing, right? And because the Monk's Belt and SuS are a bonus to the same thing from two different sources (Unarmed damage boosts from a feat and a magic item), they should stack.

As you yourself said, "Stacking only applies to rolls and checks, not to a static effect such as level." This isn't subject to THOSE stacking rules. My argument is that as the wording is "you are treated as a Monk of 5 levels higher for the purposes of determining your unarmed strike damage..." rather than "your Monk-level for the purposes of determining your unarmed strike damage increases by 5...", another similar ability would merely again treat you as X levels higher than your base level since you can't be treated X levels higher than your already "treated" level.


EDIT: For what it's worth, FAQ agrees with me. The relevant entry:

"Does a monk with a monk’s belt and the Superior Unarmed
Strike feat benefit from both, or does just the highest benefit
apply?
In this case, the better benefit will prevail. These effects
technically do not have a bonus, so they would not use the
stacking rules. One effect will end up overshadowing the other."

[Douglas]

The FAQ writer is correct that they are not technically bonuses. He is not, however, correct that this matters. Both of them specify "higher" with no explicit base. The normal English default for such things is "higher than without this", which quite clearly results in stacking.

[RagnaroksChosen]

As you yourself said, "Stacking only applies to rolls and checks, not to a static effect such as level." This isn't subject to THOSE stacking rules. My argument is that as the wording is "you are treated as a Monk of 5 levels higher for the purposes of determining your unarmed strike damage..." rather than "your Monk-level for the purposes of determining your unarmed strike damage increases by 5...", another similar ability would merely again treat you as X levels higher than your base level since you can't be treated X levels higher than your already "treated" level.

Why can't you be treated as x levels higher as your "treated" level I mean your monk unarmed strike level is effectively higher seeing as its being treated as such?
I meen the way i look at it its like your effectivly 5 levels higher for the purposes of you unarmed dmg.

douglas:
"The normal English default for such things is "higher than without this", which quite clearly results in stacking."

How do you figure? Then again are you talking proper English or American English?

[Godskook]

And yet this "real" increase disappears if your CL ever equals your HD. Whereas the Monk's Belt and SuS do not.

And pray tell, give me one example of when a bonus from practiced spell caster 'disappears'?

[ericgrau]

WotC says no:

Q: Does a monk with a monk’s belt and the Superior Unarmed Strike feat benefit from both, or does just the highest benefit apply?

A: In this case, the better benefit will prevail. These effects technically do not have a bonus, so they would not use the stacking rules. One effect will end up overshadowing the other.

[Sinfire Titan]

And pray tell, give me one example of when a bonus from practiced spell caster 'disappears'?

Wizard 10/Wild Mage 1. Practiced Spellcaster doesn't work with the penalty imposed by Wild Mage to result in a higher CL than you would normally have. You have to have another penalty in there somewhere to make it work right.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Wizard 10/Wild Mage 1. Practiced Spellcaster doesn't work with the penalty imposed by Wild Mage to result in a higher CL than you would normally have. You have to have another penalty in there somewhere to make it work right.

yes but doesn't it say specifically in there that practiced spell caster doesn't work with it?


I think there more refering to CL stacking like
wizard 5/ fighter 4
with practiced spellcaster
fire burst
bloodline of fire
Ion stone

would have a caster level (for fire spells) of 7.

[Starbuck_II]

WotC says no:

I think he read it wrong (FAQ guy).
They do have a bonus. Monk level bonus.

[ericgrau]

Treats you as a monk 5 level higher for the purpose of unarmed strike. It doesn't boost your level nor your "unarmed strike level", if such a thing ever existed. No "bonus" is ever mentioned.

[Eldariel]

I think he read it wrong (FAQ guy).
They do have a bonus. Monk level bonus.

Eh, "being treated as X levels higher" isn't a bonus in the sense the word is used in D&D. It doesn't grant you a bonus to your effective Monk-level. That's my whole point here.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Eh, "being treated as X levels higher" isn't a bonus in the sense the word is used in D&D. It doesn't grant you a bonus to your effective Monk-level. That's my whole point here.

Agreed its not a bonus.

But i disagree about the effective monk level.. seeing as it's treating it as if you where 5 levels high. To me that sounds like your effective monk level for unarmed dmg is higher.

[ericgrau]

Well if both apply to your actual monk level then that'd make them overlap, not stack.

"The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher"
Five levels higher than his monk level or 5 levels higher than his AC-and-unarmed-strike monk level. The latter doesn't exist without a large stretch of the imagination. So I'm gonna have to agree that the former is far more likely.

[Sinfire Titan]

Eh, "being treated as X levels higher" isn't a bonus in the sense the word is used in D&D. It doesn't grant you a bonus to your effective Monk-level. That's my whole point here.

Question then: If an effect called for a check or roll in which the modifier for the die roll is your effective Monk level, would they stack for that purpose? I'm being hypothetical here.


The main problem with the way the Stacking rules is how it is worded. RAW, it says specific exceptions will denote if they stack, and then says that stacking only applies to checks and rolls (which, BTW, Caster Level and Monk Level are not, so RAW Practiced Spellcaster and the Candle should never stack unless Dispel Magic is involved). If we, by default, regulate the CL increases to the "exceptions" pile, why can't we also categorize the Monk increases as an exception to the stacking rules as well.


Just so we're clear on this, I know you as a DM allow the effects to stack (most do). I'm just debating this because I disagree about the RAI regarding the stacking.

[Paulus]

Honestly I don't see how they couldn't. One is a Feat, the other is an item. The Feat is done by your own personal skill, which comparably as a state of reference for stable level increases, correlates to monk level. Simply for giving you an accurate number of increase, the same is applied for the monk, merely a frame of reference as opposed to a set standard of bonus or increase in numeric potency. Or that is to say, one increases your level this much, having the other does nothing to bring that DOWN to bring it UP. The feat gives you a number or says the equivalent of a monk four levels higher upon which you can check the chart. The item gives you a frame of reference and armor abilities of a monk, five levels higher. Higher than what? Well your current monk level. Which is assumed to be nothing if not a monk OR assumed to be a monk.

Since we are not monks it should be assumed as nothing, however, since we have an equivalency range from the feat that makes us mimic a monk, of four levels higher, it merely ADDS to that base assumption of four levels higher to a total of five levels higher than before- equaling ultimately a equivalent monk level that is nine levels higher. MERELY by frame of reference as opposed to any tangible benefit of superimposed monk-dom. So while we may not be monks, the feat states a general state of self improvement in unarmed damage LIKE a monk, and the belt, being an item, SOLELY adds of our preexisting condition of monk or non-monkness. We being influenced by a feat are rather that NEAR-MONKNESS, and therefore next to monkness as opposed to NON-monkness. Therefore, in conclusion, our NEAR monkness qualifies us for benefits of MONKNESS. BUT. only when it related to our unarmed strike damage. as the feat does NOT give us an AC influence, for we have not trained it, therefore it magically grants us that ACness of a monk four levels higher for our assumed and justified monk level of zero while improving our already substantial unarmed near monkness level for which we have trained of four to nine.

At least. That is my argument. Wording, language, I'm none the wiser. But as far as feats and items go for THIS specific and ONLY THIS particular item. This would be my ruling or idea of it all. and I would lovingly like to remind everyone that comparative ruling such as "Well you allowed this, why is this no different." is what really ruins it for situational based argumentative logic and interpretation. The specifics of a case by case basis are far better to equivocate a just and reasonable end, while not relying solely on "but X allowed Y so it should allow Z" because that argument does not judge the singularity fairly, but instead relies on judging a whole. And as we all know, it only takes one bad apple to sour the whole bunch.

But, that's just my opinion. So who can say?

[woodenbandman]

Regardless, they both apply to your base level so while the word "stack" isn't the reason they don't stack in the traditional D&D sense, in the English meaning of the word it's still accurate. They are both worded in a fashion that they are applied to the same number and don't notice each others' existence. It's the same reason you can't stack Monkey Grip & Strongarm Bracers on a Medium creature to wield a Huge weapon with the same handedness as the Medium version.

Monkey Grip allows you to wield a weapon too large for a creature of your size category with diminished effort. I.E. a medium creature may wield a longsword belonging to a large creature with 1 hand, rather than two. This has no effect on the penalty to attack rolls you take for an oversized weapon.

Strongarm Bracers allows you to wield a weapon that a creature one size category larger than you could wield. You actually do count as one size larger for the purpose of wielding a weapon.

This seems like semantics, but it's not. This isn't an applicable comparison.

As for the question, I say yes they do, mainly because I want desperately to believe that WotC wouldn't put out a feat for something that an item does better, but that's probably wishful thinking.

[Demons_eye]

Just so we're clear on this, I know you as a DM allow the effects to stack (most do). I'm just debating this because I disagree about the RAI regarding the stacking.

I agree with this but when I look at it in RAW? No they dont stack. If you needed a monk level check neither would help for that as they both add to diffrent things. Both add to unarmed strike but only to unarmed strike. Thats like saying your caster level is 5 higher for dispel checks.

Sorry for the spelling but I am at work and they dont have firefox.

[Fax Celestis]

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession).

As the abilities in question are not modifiers to a "given check or roll", but instead alter the way your abilities work, they do not stack.

The verbage used is almost identical to that used in Monkey Grip and Powerful Build ("...treated as if [X levels/sizes] higher."), and those effects do not stack. Why would these?

[Sinfire Titan]

As the abilities in question are not modifiers to a "given check or roll", but instead alter the way your abilities work, they do not stack.

The verbage used is almost identical to that used in Monkey Grip and Powerful Build ("...treated as if [X levels/sizes] higher."), and those effects do not stack. Why would these?

Then why does a Candle of Invocation stack with the Ioun Stone when there's no caster level check called for?

[ericgrau]

Then why does a Candle of Invocation stack with the Ioun Stone when there's no caster level check called for?

(on monk's belt + superior unarmed strike)

These effects technically do not have a bonus, so they would not use the stacking rules. One effect will end up overshadowing the other.

This "monk unarmed strike damage level" you speak of is a figment of your imagination. There is no bonus. Are we just gonna go in circles from here?

[Curmudgeon]

SuS and Monk's Belt are untyped bonuses from different sources

That's not really true. Bonuses are just numbers that add. These aren't bonuses at all; instead, they're specific limited boosts, limited relative to your actual Monk levels. Neither the word "bonus" nor a "+" sign appears in either the Monk's Belt or Superior Unarmed Strike description for their unarmed strike improvement.

[Fax Celestis]

Then why does a Candle of Invocation stack with the Ioun Stone when there's no caster level check called for?

Because one of those is an explicit bonus ("+1 caster level"), while the other is a "treat as x higher" effect.

[Godskook]

Wizard 10/Wild Mage 1. Practiced Spellcaster doesn't work with the penalty imposed by Wild Mage to result in a higher CL than you would normally have. You have to have another penalty in there somewhere to make it work right.

1.I don't understand your example...

2.That's not quite what I was saying. I was saying, show me a build of level X, that has a CL of Y and practiced spellcaster gives a bonus of +Z. Then, show me a way of X+1 having a CL < Y or a PS bonus of <+Z. As far as I know, there's no way of doing this, short of retraining class levels.