level cap for wands and potions

[Kol Korran]

i was wondering- why are potions limited to 3rd level spells, and wands to 4the level, when scrolls can go up to 9th? does anyone knows the reasong for this? i could definetly see potions of heal, and wands of disintigrate for example...

thanks in advance,
Kol.

[The Neoclassic]

I wonder about this too. To be clear: Is this actually a rule specified under the feat description, or is it more just that on the magic item tables, we don't see potions with spells higher than 3rd level?

[Kalirren]

The reason is probably historical and arbitrary. I don't know. I've always assumed that the difference between them was due to spell completion (scrolls) being a more stringent constraint than spell trigger (wands/staves) which is more stringent than use-activated (potions).

Of course, the advent of UMD made this obsolete, but they never bothered changing anything. It -is- a rule specified in the item description.

[ericgrau]

Probably thanks to staffs, which take over where wands leave off and are better at that level anyway.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I wonder about this too. To be clear: Is this actually a rule specified under the feat description, or is it more just that on the magic item tables, we don't see potions with spells higher than 3rd level?

It's stated in the Feats.

[The Neoclassic]

It's stated in the Feats.

Weird and silly. Oh well; ericgrau's point about staffs (staves?) makese sense. And I suppose there are special PrCs and such that allow one to make higher-level potions.

[hamishspence]

there is also an intemediate category calls Sceptres, in Lost Empires of Faerun- spell trigger items, can hold up to two spells instead of one, of up to 7th level.

Many of the old AD&D second edition wands worked as two-spell items- scepters enable DMs to represent these old items in 3.5.

[Thurbane]

The reason is probably historical and arbitrary.

Nope - AFAIK, in earlier editions there was no such cap. In fact, in 1E and 2E wands and potions often weren't even tied to specific spells.

[Clementx]

I have never had a problem with lvl9 potions. They still have to be targeted non-personal effects, only affect one target, and cost twice as much as scrolls. No one ever would resent the Fighter dropping 1,400gp for a CL7th potion of polymorph for himself. This also makes Brew Potion much more sensible to take for PCs, when it was previously left only for NPC merchants.

I still keep the lvl4 limit on wands, but roll Craft Wand and Staff together. They are both spell trigger, after all. The magic just requires a bigger stick when you use higher level or multiple spells. The only mechanical difference is staves are weapons (rarely comes into play for casters) and wands are light objects able to be Sleight of Handed (also limited relevance).

[hamishspence]

combining staff-and-wand making into one feat is a interesting idea.

there is a PRC in Magic of Faerun that is able to brew up to 9th level potions- so allowing those potions in the game (assume there are a lot of master alchemists out there) is not unprecedented.

[Stegyre]

i was wondering- why are potions limited to 3rd level spells, and wands to 4the level, when scrolls can go up to 9th? does anyone knows the reasong for this? i could definetly see potions of heal, and wands of disintigrate for example...

While I'm not aware of an expressly stated reason, balance is probably the motivation: it is much easier to use a wand (and more characters may use a wand) than may use a scroll, and potions, of course, can be used by anyone. The level limitation means that more powerful spell effects are not as readily available. Instead, you need a substantially higher UMD score (to use a scroll) and need to pay more money per casting (scroll, again).

Or its the Tier 1 Spellcasters' Union, ensuring that their members will always be included in an adventuring party and receive a percentage of the take, instead of being relegated to the flat-rate (though still lucrative) compensation of the crafting labs.

[hamishspence]

The psionic equivalent of wands- dorjes, go up to 9th level- suggesting that if it is balance, the idea got dropped when psionics came round.

[ericgrau]

I don't see high level potions as a problem so much as a trap. Since they're self targetting, that limits their usefulness and gives them quite a high price. Like how about a 1,400 gp potion of greater heroism? Eh, maybe at epic level. But then that kind of bonus gets to be OP for so "cheap", compared to how expensive a +1 is otherwise at epic levels.

[deuxhero]

Would potions be worth their excessive cost if they could hold personal spells?

[Stegyre]

The psionic equivalent of wands- dorjes, go up to 9th level- suggesting that if it is balance, the idea got dropped when psionics came round.

Or maybe that, while there are many similarities between magic and psionic functions, there are also some notable differences. This is just one of them.

However, you do point out a loophole: using the Chameleon Crafting feat, a character could conceivably make a dorje containing up to ninth-level spells (or higher, as none of the Dorje rules seem to specify any limit other than no more than five levels above the minimum for the power). The balancing factor is that this will cost 50% more XP. The user will also need the UPD skill, rather than UMD, to activate it, which will usually limit both the number of characters with the necessary skill (UPD is quite rare, except among psionic classes) or a usable level in that skill.

[DementedFellow]

In some sort of 3rd party system type thing, there is a Swamp Witch PrC that focuses on brewing. It is flavorful but really tailored for an NPC.

[Bayar]

combining staff-and-wand making into one feat is a interesting idea.

there is a PRC in Magic of Faerun that is able to brew up to 9th level potions- so allowing those potions in the game (assume there are a lot of master alchemists out there) is not unprecedented.

Oh god, combine this with the potion brewer PrC in Eberron and you have level 9 blank potions that you can fill with any spell when needed. ANY spell or infusion