What Happened To Weapon Finesse?

[Jesse Drake]

Okay, first off, that's not the reason I'm posting. I know, it's called Melee Training in 4e. In fact, if my character were to be dexterity focused and I took melee training, I'd call it weapon finesse, call me nostalgic. In fact, I've named three of the other abilities too. I find melee training too generic.

For charisma, I nicknamed the feat Battle Dancing. You understand where that comes from. A graceful means of battle where the feat user attacks flawlessly with swift, artful strikes. For intelligence, it's Tactical Combatant, because a smart fighter would know where to place the blows so's to be most effective. Wisdom get Intuitive Strike, because they trust in their skills to help them place an effective blow.

You may have noticed I left constitution off the list. That is cause I'm wondering, how exactly would someone go about hitting someone with their health? I may have the concept of Constitution wrong here, please correct me if I am, but what would you call that? For that matter, I ask again, how does someone go about hitting someone with their Con?

[Ledeas]

You may have noticed I left constitution off the list. That is cause I'm wondering, how exactly would someone go about hitting someone with their health? I may have the concept of Constitution wrong here, please correct me if I am, but what would you call that? For that matter, I ask again, how does someone go about hitting someone with their Con?

I have never played 4th, but I got an idea on the Con thing.

Could not the Healty / sturdy / Bulk? be a factor?

Like a Bash or smash manuver? I could see someone being thrown (ala fastball express think Wolverine & Colosses) The person being thrown has to be healthy to take the abuse.

being a speed bump might also be a version. think of great movies where the guy takes hours of abuse and never goes down...

Rope a dope is my last suggegstion. Tire them out. You have more str. and Dex, but your con is 9. Mine is 18 and I just plain outlast you.

Hope the ideas help.

[Thajocoth]

Overbearing Lunge

They're really putting their back into it. Not just their muscles... Themselves. Not exactly contorting, but lunging in a normally unhealthy manner, that they can do because they're so coniferous. Not to be confused with the tree...

[Tavar]

To my mind, a fighting style based on Con would consist of alot of riposte. You know, blocking the blow, absorbing it's momentum/energy, and then hitting the enemy. Still seems a bit artificial, though, but DnD combat's always been that way. I mean, look at your Cha definition: is there any reason that it couldn't apply to Dex?

[Jesse Drake]

Thanks y'all! That helps, I've got a few ideas to bat around.

And as for the charisma thing, that may be true, but dexterity based fighters don't look as good slicing through the air. For a charisma based fighter, their enemies body is a canvas, and their blade a paintbrush.

[taltamir]

You may have noticed I left constitution off the list. That is cause I'm wondering, how exactly would someone go about hitting someone with their health? I may have the concept of Constitution wrong here, please correct me if I am, but what would you call that? For that matter, I ask again, how does someone go about hitting someone with their Con?

magic! ;p
you could probably make a contrived explanation about intentionally take "small insignificant hits" to leave the opponent open, but i don't see it flying....

IRL, your muscles are capable of MUCH MUCH more than you think, but your ligament and joints and bones cannot sustain that. This is why you are limited, unless in extreme cases, to a fraction of your power. That is how a mom can lift a car off her son, and so on... go on, try to lift your car right now.

I actually practiced "unlocking" for a while, I would meditate and focus before launching a strike, minor improvements... until I managed to hit REALLY hard. The punching bag flew off the hinges (well, off some.. one remained and it just went up and up, nearly hit the ceiling), and went unbeleivably far... time seemed to crawl, a shockwave went through my arm and spread through my body. I twisted my neck, my hip, my shoulder dislocated, etc... i could barely limp to bed, it was horribly painful and it took me a while to recover, two weeks before i was no longer in pain and stiff (but i was mostly recovered after 3 days)...
That was years ago and the last time I tried something like that...

[Night Monkey]

I've often found Melee Training to be one of the dafter things in 4E, I've personally considered houseruling it out and putting Weapon Finesse in its place. However, in D&D and 4E in particular, the attributes are somewhat abstract, and for simplicity's sake cannot quite emulate real abilities. What is the Wisdom score on someone with brilliant insight and a superb ability to understand other people, but whose head is otherwise so often in the clouds that they couldn't ever notice a person creeping up on them from behind? What is the Dex score of an obese darts player? Why on earth does the academic intellect of the Wizard help them dodge arrows and blades? The attribute system is a loosely defined nebula of broad concepts, applied in contradictory ways. The reason? Ease of gameplay, the particular focus of 4E. The message? If it suits your character's build to use Con for basic attacks, take the feat and fudge the details.

[Jesse Drake]

Actually, in real life, I called it something else, but the name slips me now, as it was a mere comment at the time, but I've been pondering on the question for some time. And as for just picking it and rolling with it, sure, that's fine, but I was looking for something else. But don't worry, I've got a few answers to my question. I do thank you for helping me fix my post, I am a bit tired and wrote the wrong word. It's really a big deal to me that I put down tactile not tactical.

[Kurald Galain]

However, in D&D and 4E in particular, the attributes are somewhat abstract, and for simplicity's sake cannot quite emulate real abilities ... The attribute system is a loosely defined nebula of broad concepts, applied in contradictory ways. The reason? Ease of gameplay

Precisely.

A character with a high con score doesn't have to be healthy or sturdy or anything; the only thing the score means is that you're good at certain warlock attacks. Heck, even hit points key off another stat for many characters these days.

[Blackfang108]

For charisma, I nicknamed the feat Battle Dancing.

In all honesty, I've named this version of the feat "Power of Kamina."

Also, "Power of Awesome."

[Person_Man]

In 3.X, there were a bunch of X to Y abilities, and they were very much needed for certain melee builds. I've only played core 4E games, but I was under the impression that you didn't need any X to Y feats, since all of the powers are keyed to your two key attributes, and you could improve two attributes as you gained levels. What am I missing? Basic Attacks? Who the heck makes Basic Attacks when you have At Wills?

[Myshlaevsky]

Unstoppable Opponent or Warrior or Combatant or something similar.

[Kurald Galain]

Who the heck makes Basic Attacks when you have At Wills?

As a result of (1) opportunity attacks, (2) a warlord in the party, or (3) a number of feats or items that allow you to make a basic attack in certain circumstances.

Actually, none of these are common enough or impressive enough to make melee training a strong feat: OAs are rare, and given the large amount of monster HP, only important if they have a secondary effect, such as the fighter's. The warlord (if any) will give his basic attacks to the party member best capable of making them anyway (which you won't be even if you take this feat). And the items mentioned in #3 are intended for other classes.

One or two exceptions exist on the CharOp board, of course, notably the (recently errata'ed-out-of-existence) Feycharger.

[Jesse Drake]

Actually, I use intelligence for melee basic. I have a horned helm and charge every where, as all my bard powers aren't as powerful damaging as everyone else's. And the another member is an avenger, who, again, his powers aren't as powerful. Plus we make opportunity attacks often enough, plus multiclass warlord to give even more free attacks. It's actually a very handy feat.

[Kurald Galain]

Actually, I use intelligence for melee basic.

I didn't say it was useless, I said it wasn't strong. There's a difference there.

I've only played core 4E games, but I was under the impression that you didn't need any X to Y feats, since all of the powers are keyed to your two key attributes, and you could improve two attributes as you gained levels.

Oh yeah, common 4E tricks include wisdom-to-initiative, and whatever-stat-you-want-to-hit-points.

[Blackfang108]

Oh yeah, common 4E tricks include wisdom-to-initiative, and whatever-stat-you-want-to-hit-points.

Really it's only INT/WIS to HP that I've seen. (well, CON also.)

And that's only if you allow Forgotten Realms Backgrounds. (Which my group doesn't.)

[Jesse Drake]

Well, there are Dragon Magazine feats that allow you to add your highest ability to h.p., though my DM only allows feats/backgrounds that you can reason why you'd have it, and if you can role play it right. He's very strict on role playing your abilities and all that stuff.

Edit- What feat lets you add wisdom to initiative? I'd like that.

[Spiryt]

I don't know why you are wondering about Constitution thing at all.

In fact to be able to fight really, Constitution is very basic thing to have, only in D&D fighters are able to swing the axes all day.

So guy who fights with Constitution hits really hard, moving very fast, dodging, balancing with feet and changing distance, and generally runs like Wanderlei Silva on speed and despite that isn't exhausted after 20 second.

Also, his vessel system, lungs, and all is so well working and healthy that he really has a lot of energy and strenght.

Petty things aren't able to bring him pain, so he goes 100% when others are disharted.

And so on, those are just few examples. It's not really hard to imagine.

[Tiki Snakes]

I tend to view the 'physical' stats as just different types of strength, these days. So a high strength, high dex and low con character would have a physique like bruce lee, leen and toned with lots of definition. High Strength and high Con, low dex would be something like a heavyweight boxer, perhaps Nickolai Valuev or so. Tough as nails, with lots of muscle mass but not necessarily much definition.

And so on and so-forth. I'd imagine someone who fights via Con rather than Strength is basically 'throwing his weight around'. Attacks that hit and hurt through sheer mass and momentum rather than true strength. I'd say a sumo wrestler would be a good image, (Perhaps a high con, mid dex? I mean, they've got good balance, and can throw you around easy enough, but can you see them shimmying up a rope?)

Also, I've taken melee training Charisma on my sorcerer, (mostly for flavour) and consider it to represent his mystical-martial-arts training, striking using his internal energy (chi) and attacking the energy-points of his enemies bodies, leaving him able to hit far, far harder than his mere musculature explains.

Probably going to retrain out of it as he levels up though, because it IS mostly for flavour, and as he becomes more in-tune with his (actual class) power, he will have increasingly less call to fight that way.