Ranger without "Hide in plain sight"

[Pigkappa]

I have always considered the "hide in plain sight" ability completely unrealistic. That is, I imagine myself watching a man in a plain with low grass (10 cm). Since he is a ranger, he will likely have a good Hiding skill (let's say, + 20 for a level 17 Ranger), while my Spot skill may be decent but not great (let's say, +9 for a level 17 Warrior or Mage or whatever). He suddenly "disappears", but he has not become invisible. That makes no sense to me, since there is nowhere he could possibly have gone, and I can't think his skin has just become green in order to be confused with grass.

Anyway, I realize that is probably one of the strongest feat of a ranger, so I don't know what I can use to replace it. I have never played a ranger, so I'm not really good at understanding what he needs and what he doesn't need.

[Milskidasith]

This is a world where Wizards can stop time and it's perfectly possible for a melee character to break a steel wall with a greatsword that's on fire. Complaining about HiPS is... odd.

[Eldariel]

HiPS is not magic, which might make it seem unplausible. But you're forgetting one key thing: It's a level 17 Ranger. Humans as in the creatures of our world cap around level 6, and that's for the absolute Paragons of humanity. Most people are level 1-2.

Really, have you never missed something right in front of you? Maybe your carkeys? Maybe you've looked for the underwear that you're already wearing? Stuff like this happens all the time. Creatures have a perception, but brains can play tricks on that perception.


Therefore, it is possible to imagine a guy who's spent his whole life in wilderness being SO skilled and SO cunning that he plays into this natural flaw in creatures' perception and can remain completely unseen right in front of them. Maybe he's lying in the grass just blending in so well that you think it's a small bump, nothing more. Maybe he's like a Chameleon...an American Chameleon.

But yeah, how he does it is not something you should be thinking about. It's skill beyond your imagination. I'm sure you've sometimes seen a magician or an acrobat or something do something that you consider to be completely humanly impossible. Hell, I'm sure you've sometimes at least heard of a magician doing a disappearance trick right in front of your eyes. That's what's happening here; the Ranger is doing something and vanishing from sight. And then he's just SO good at hiding that you can't see him. Like, normally it's DC 40 to swim a waterfall.

A level 17 Ranger trivially hits DC 40 on his Hide-check (+10 Dex, 20 Ranks, done), so he's doing stuff that's comparable to swimming up a waterfall. It's not something you'd expect to see a Human do, but it's something these characters with completely superhuman skills can do.

[Arachu]

If you're wearing the appropriate camouflage, it'd still work no matter what. Urban, leaves, brown shapes... And, it could give a fairly interesting story hook.

Said man couldn't just disappear into the foliage, but if he was wearing brown or green leaf-patterned camo, just stopping would do it for him.

Take deer, for example. When an adult deer is in trouble, it runs off, but when a tiny, slow faun is threatened, it just sits down in the sun. A deer's fur breaks its outline, and appears to be dry leaves at a distance (effective in northern forests).

How about any kind of fish with a dark top and light bottom? From either side it appears to be part of the background. Bottom-dwellers are brown, grey, or even black depending on the color of the sand.

And than there are certain species of moth, that hide against trees. On that note; leaf bugs, by definition.

Maybe you could just make Hide in Plain Sight available for when you're wearing effective camo? Go all Metal Gear* on 'em and make camos ranging from leaf, to dirt, to bricks. I may make a list later, if asked

(* I refer to the game Metal Gear Solid 3, in which a major gameplay element involves donning camo in order to ambush or sneak by your foes - quite literally in front of them. Unfortunately, dogs are brighter than that, but this is a tale for another time... If you pay attention in-game, it really is very hard to see Snake like this, particularly in three-dimensional effects such as tall grass, and this demonstrates that it would be even harder to see him in real life. I mean, you know where he is, and sometimes you can see his hair, but if you're perfectly still that's about it.)

Of course, Snake could probably hide on a white background in a black catsuit, but my point remains.

[Arachu]

Here's some examples, just a handful I found in like 5 minutes.

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Natural

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And artificial

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[Yora]

And that's a very low quality ghillie suit from the rack.

[ericgrau]

I have always considered the "hide in plain sight" ability completely unrealistic. That is, I imagine myself watching a man in a plain with low grass (10 cm). Since he is a ranger, he will likely have a good Hiding skill (let's say, + 20 for a level 17 Ranger), while my Spot skill may be decent but not great (let's say, +9 for a level 17 Warrior or Mage or whatever). He suddenly "disappears", but he has not become invisible. That makes no sense to me, since there is nowhere he could possibly have gone, and I can't think his skin has just become green in order to be confused with grass.

Anyway, I realize that is probably one of the strongest feat of a ranger, so I don't know what I can use to replace it. I have never played a ranger, so I'm not really good at understanding what he needs and what he doesn't need.

You merely need to remember one simple thing about the ability: You are no longer in plain sight after using it, only before. Normally when making a hide check you can't hide behind something while someone is watching you. With hide in plain sight you can, but you still need to hide behind something. Except rangers also get camouflage, so they don't need to hide behind something in a wilderness setting. But at least there's an explanation for it. Shadowdancers OTOH are just plain crazy.

[Yora]

A shadowdancers HiPS is also supernatural, making it magical. It's not really explained, but I guess it's something like an illusion that uses a Hide check instead of a Caster Level check.

For rangers, I would say that the ability allows you to get behind cover or concelment while being watched. But when the person watching you get's close enough to control your hiding spot, you've used the short time to get to a real hiding place.
For example, if a ranger is chased, he runs behind a large rock. Normally, that would be no use, because the pursuer knows he just has to look behind that large rock to find you. But a ranger with HiPS might for example climbed on top of the rock while his pursuer is running around it. Or the ranger drops behind a bush while being observed, but then crawls away on his belly without bing seen. And when his pursuer reaches the bush, he's allready long gone, though the pursuer did not see him getting away.

And with camouflage, you can just drop to the ground and pull your hood over your face while lying in high grass and a pursuer might not see you even from 2m away. And as a 17th level ranger, you're so awsome that you could jump into a pit and everyone looking down from above would just see one slightly larger rock lying in the rouble.
Like that elven cloak in the Two Towers movie.

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It would probably be better if you aquire that ability gradually and not that you can't do it all the time, and suddenly you're a master.

[ericgrau]

Hiding behind a large rock is a valid use of using cover to hide. If you're not peeking around the edge, in fact, you have total cover and succeed w/o even using a hide check. Looking behind the rock negates the cover. But the enemy will only look behind the rock if he saw you go behind the rock. That's where HiPS comes in. You can duck behind the rock without the enemy seeing you do it. Normally you'd need to distract your opponent first: "What's that over there!" <jumps behind rock>

Camouflage means you press your body against the front of the rock and contort it to look like a piece of the rock. You can imagine how effective that'd be if someone walked by a few minutes later. And how ineffective it is if they stand there and watch you do the contorting. But with HiPs you do some funky movements and the enemy says "What? Did he disappear? Maybe he went behind the rock or in the bushes. " Then he pushes on the bushes, feels the rock for a switch that might activate a trapdoor, then touches something soft and fleshy and finds the ranger.

Or with HiPS without camouflage you could slip behind the rock unnoticed.

[Ouranos]

Actually, people really can do similar things. Lets say someone is watching you move around from a half mile off. They see a figure shuffling around, then they stop seeing movement. By the time they get within range to do anything, the figure is perfectly camouflaged and hidden in the shrubs, half buried under dead plants. Did they see him do it? Yeah. Does that mean they actually know where he is once they lose direct sight or blink if he's supernaturally (read 17th level) fast at it? Heck no, they lost em.

Edit: ya gotta remember also, hide does not just apply to actually the act of getting into a hidden position, but STAYING hidden while someone is looking right at you. So i use camo, I hide myself in the grass, and start moving towards the tower so i can take out the watchman. He stares right at me, even as I walk, but I still have to beat his spot with my hide as I creep along, nothing to actually hide me, I just look like swaying grass because of my clothes and my likely to be worn ghilli (sp?) suit.

[Ashtagon]

So basically, a 17th level ranger gets a summon ghillie suit spell?

[Pigkappa]

Hell, I'm sure you've sometimes at least heard of a magician doing a disappearance trick right in front of your eyes.

Yes, but the fact is that I know that there are some human ways to do that, even if they are really difficult to be mastered. I just can't imagine any way to disappear while someone is watching me from a distance of 10 metres, without hiding behind something and without moving. That is just physically impossible, you have a fixed volume and your clothes have a certain color, you can't modify the frequency of the photons you emit, even if your skills are extremely good >_<.

If you're wearing the appropriate camouflage, it'd still work no matter what

Yes, of course. But if your clothes are red and you are in the grass, you can still use that ability, and you don't have "the appropriate camouflage".

Here's some examples [...]

They have the appropriate camouflage, definitely. The camouflage does the trick, not their skill.

Shadowdancers OTOH are just plain crazy.

What is "OTOH"?

Lets say someone is watching you move around from a half mile off.

Let's say someone is watching you while you are not moving, from 20 metres off. There is no rock and no tall grass and nothing you can sneak behind to hide, and your clothes are green while the terrain is brown. You just "disappear", without the use of magic. That is definitely weird.

[Eldariel]

They have the appropriate camouflage, definitely. The camouflage does the trick, not their skill.

And Ranger's HiPS is intimately tied to their Camouflage ability gained on level 13; that's what enables them to hide without cover. So...yeah. As for Shadowdancers, they weave the shadows around them to disappear. Essentially, they become one with the shadows. I mean, why do you think their HiPS requires shadows in the general vicinity to function and is Su? It's just some interaction with the Plane of Shadows.

[Sudduth]

So basically, a 17th level ranger gets a summon ghillie suit spell?

Basically.

[Ouranos]

You seem to be citing only that which supports your case and ignoring the rest. Don't forget the edit in mine, Hide DOES apply to staying hidden while going somewhere, a ranger just happens to be able to keep doing it without something to hide under. If I'm dressed like grass and creep along in the grass, even if somebody looks at me, I can keep going. You have to think also, a ranger is generally dressed for their terrain, and will often change their clothing to match colors with whatever setting they'll be in. plus, smearing dirt on yourself and your clothes and covering yourself in leaves and brush IS a geart way to make yourself blend in when you think outside of the modern box.

[Draz74]

Yeah, basically echoing what other people have said: This isn't really very unrealistic. Real life commandos in special forces have to perform similar stunts of stealth ... and even if this were completely unrealistic, ... it's Level 17! Everyone and everything is unrealistic, magic or not!

[Pigkappa]

You seem to be citing only that which supports your case and ignoring the rest

I'm not saying that feat never makes sense. There are some situations in which it can be nice - for example, a ranger who can hide in tall grass so quickly that you may think he just disappeared. The problem is that the feat applies to a great amount of situations, and in some of them I can't really understand how that works. The idea that the ranger can interact with another plane of existence to alter reality and use this ability is also quite strange for the concept of the class, IMO.


Anyway, the question was just "what do you think HiPS (and maybe the previous feat which allows you Camouflage) can be replaced with, without nerfing or making stronger the class too much?".

[Haarkla]

I have always considered the "hide in plain sight" ability completely unrealistic.

Why not just make it a supernatural (Su) ability?

[ericgrau]

What is "OTOH"?

On the other hand. It's netspeak, like ftw. It's unnecssary anyway.

[Yora]

Why not just make it a supernatural (Su) ability?

The shadowdancers is.
The rangers HiPS does work in real life, so it's not.

[Ashtagon]

The shadowdancers is.
The rangers HiPS does work in real life, so it's not.

Ranger's HiPS is summon ghillie suit, not mere hiding. It works even in situations when he is dressed completely inappropriately for the terrain.

Considering the ranger class does have magic, would it be wrong to overtly describe it as summon ghillie suit, with the suit returning whence it came when the ranger stops trying to be hidden?

[Yora]

It does require some careful handling by the gm, I admit that.

But I firmly believe, that every RPG is completely unplayable if played by RAW.