[3.5] Gestalt: Sorcerer//Favored Soul

[Zovc]

Would one be "powergaming" with a Sorcerer//Favored Soul Gestalt?

Going straight, you improve your Sorc's HD, Saves, and BAB--not that you care about the HD or Saves that much.

I'm not against builds that level up their casting twice at one level (Mystic Theurge//Incantrix or whatever), but I'm more interested in builds that progress each class only once (each) per level. That's not to say you can't use Mystic Theurge//Paladin to get some cheesy Cha to Saves.

Essentially, just use Charisma for everything.

[Keld Denar]

Nope. No power gaming at all. While you do have 2 spell lists, you only have 1 action.

Also, go reread the rules for that. Its HIGHLY discouraged to take PrCs on more than one side at a time (base class on the other) and duel advancement PrCs like Mystic Theurge are disallowed.

The most powerful gestalt combo is probably either Wizard//Factotum or Wizard//Psion, simply due to action advantage abuse.

[woodenbandman]

Is it possible to powergame in gestalt? And what's with this fear of powergaming anyway?

You are incapable of powergaming unless you actually want to. If you're too powerful, bring it up with your DM and he'll probably be okay if you want to change characters.

Sorceror//Favored Soul is fine. Bonus points if you go Sacred Exorcist on both sides.

[Kobold-Bard]

Would one be "powergaming" with a Sorcerer//Favored Soul Gestalt?

Going straight, you improve your Sorc's HD, Saves, and BAB--not that you care about the HD or Saves that much.

I'm not against builds that level up their casting twice at one level (Mystic Theurge//Incantrix or whatever), but I'm more interested in builds that progress each class only once (each) per level. That's not to say you can't use Mystic Theurge//Paladin to get some cheesy Cha to Saves.

Essentially, just use Charisma for everything.

I'm playing one, and as it has been pointed out, you are like the Mystic Theurge on Steroids, but in the end you're still a Theurge. Hundreds of options, but not enough time to use them all. I still enjoy my guy, but Theurge is one of my favourite build styles.

Not what you're looking for but Psion//Ranger is awesome. Full "Casting" with minor healing abilities (that isn't affected by Armour), three good saves, d8 Hit Dice, full BAB (useful for ranged touch attacks) as well as various other treats. Just a thought.

Edit: On the subject of dips, two levels of Paladin does indeed add Cha to Saves, two levels of Monk with Aesetic Mage(?) also adds it to AC instead of Wisdom. Play a Nymph and you get the same again (I believe they stack) at the cost of some levels (but gaining some Druid Spells).

You can't take two PrCs at once, nor can you use dual-advancement classes (Mystic Theurge, Jade Phoenix Mage, Anima Mage etc.).

[Mongoose87]

I'm playing one, and as it has been pointed out, you are like the Mystic Theurge on Steroids, but in the end you're still a Theurge. Hundreds of options, but not enough time to use them all. I still enjoy my guy, but Theurge is one of my favourite build styles.

Not what you're looking for but Psion//Ranger is awesome. Full "Casting" with minor healing abilities (that isn't affected by Armour), three good saves, d8 Hit Dice, full BAB (useful for ranged touch attacks) as well as various other treats. Just a thought.

It's a little on the MAD side. I think the ever-popular Warblade//Psion (or Wizard) would suit better.

[Kobold-Bard]

It's a little on the MAD side. I think the ever-popular Warblade//Psion (or Wizard) would suit better.

True, and in actual fact that is a much better idea I realise now. I thought manoeuvres would leave you wit the same problems as Sor//Fav Soul, but then I remembered that a lot of them are passive, and the Diamond Mind ones that turn Saves into Concentration checks, take care of the poor Reflex Save.

Definitely go with Warblade over Ranger.

[imperialspectre]

I built a horrifyingly effective Sorcerer/Favored Soul theurge for Test of Spite a little while ago. It was not nearly as effective as a gestalt Sorc/FS would be, but I can point you to a few things that might suggest to you that Sorc/Favored Soul is actually a better gestalt character at high levels than many other popular class combinations.

First, you're actually as SAD as any other caster. Sure, you use Wisdom to calculate save DCs for your FS spells. Doesn't matter - why do you need to cast FS spells with saves? Use FS for buffs and such. Your ability score priorities are Charisma > Constitution = Intelligence (you need skill points BADLY) > Dexterity (Divine Agility from the Spell Compendium boosts Dexterity by +10) > Strength > Wisdom.

Second, while Charisma is normally the worst ability score in the game, a 1-level dip in Sacred Exorcist means that now you have a thoroughly ridiculous number of Turn Undead attempts in action. That means you're now the best DMM caster in existence, in terms of natural turn attempts. Buy a Nightstick and a Reliquary Holy Symbol, and you could even afford to Persist a great many of your spells.

For extra DMM fun, get the Southern Magician feat from Races of Faerun, allowing you to count your arcane spells as divine for purposes of DMM. It also lets you count divine spells as arcane spells for purposes of Arcane Spellsurge.

Third, there's the question of action economy. Sure, Wizard//Factotum gets extra standard actions (not as many as you might think, though - Font of Inspiration trades off with having other feats that boost wizard casting) and Wizard//Psion gets Schism and other action-economy tricks. However, Wizards don't get to abuse Arcane Spellsurge like you do, and they don't even get Arcane Fusion without shenanigans or two very specific PrCs (both of which lose caster levels). The bottom line is that you can get two spells per round at minimum, or as many as four if you're willing to twink a little and nova a lot. You're hardly a gimp in terms of the action economy.

Oh, and Arcane Spellsurge can be DMM Persisted.

Fourth, there's the question of Prestige Classes. You can get most of the really good stuff from the amazing Sorcerer guides here and here. However, there are a couple standouts that should be noted.

• Sacred Exorcist (Complete Divine) is critical for these builds, as it opens the way to getting free metamagic through your now-copious Turn Undead attempts.
  
  
• War Mage (Dragonlance: Age of Mortals - for the last WotC-legal Dragonlance book, it had quite a bit of fun material) is one of the best blaster classes EVAR, and simultaneously one of the best buffer classes for Charisma-based casters. Over 5 levels, it gives you two bonus metamagic feats off a small list (I recommend Empower and Maximize, because the others aren't great), lets you give up to 3 allies (one can be yourself) a morale (!) bonus to AC equal to your Charisma bonus (!!!!!!!!!), and lets you add 3 points of damage to every die of every spell you cast that deals damage (WTF?!?!?!?). For those who might be wondering, yes, that includes ability damage, such as Ray of Stupidity.
  
  Oh, War Mage also reduces arcane spell failure by 10%, so you can wear a Mithral Chain Shirt or something.
  
  
• War Weaver (Heroes of Battle) is a tough class to qualify for as a divine spellcaster, but if you qualify as an arcane spellcaster there's nothing preventing you from casting all of your divine spells through War Weaver. Lets you cast one buff and have it affect (Charisma bonus) number of allies.
  
  
• Spellguard of Silverymoon (Player's Guide to Faerun requires one of the same feats that War Mage does and has mad synergy with War Weaver. You see, the 4th-level ability lets you count a [Personal]-range spell as a [Touch]-range spell if it gives AC, a save bonus, or more HP (either healing or giving temporary HP). Making the spell [Touch]-range means you can channel it through the War Weaver's Eldritch tapestry and cast, say, Bite of the Werebear on all of your friends.

The bottom line? The Favored Soul/Sorcerer gestalt combination is mechanically awesome. If you have a strong party, you can keep up with them easily. If you have a weaker party, just go War Weaver/Spellguard/War Mage and buff them a lot. You have the spell slots. Either way, your party will love you.

[KellKheraptis]

You might also check with the DM to see if he's following the suggestions and only allowing one PrC per level per side. If he's not and you can stack them on either side, I'll whip up a gesault version of my War Weaver from Hell.

[imperialspectre]

Even if he is, there's nothing wrong with going FS 20 - the class features aren't great, but they're passives, and some of them help you qualify for your other PrCs. Then on the Sorcerer side, it's something like Sorc 5/War Weaver 5/Spellguard 4/War Mage 5/Sacred Exorcist 1. Not in that order, of course; I suggest mixing and matching PrCs to get the (heavily frontloaded) class features from War Weaver and War Mage as quickly as possible, then finishing out the classes once you have everything else assembled.

[KellKheraptis]

Even if he is, there's nothing wrong with going FS 20 - the class features aren't great, but they're passives, and some of them help you qualify for your other PrCs. Then on the Sorcerer side, it's something like Sorc 5/War Weaver 5/Spellguard 4/War Mage 5/Sacred Exorcist 1. Not in that order, of course; I suggest mixing and matching PrCs to get the (heavily frontloaded) class features from War Weaver and War Mage as quickly as possible, then finishing out the classes once you have everything else assembled.

If he wouldn't be opposed to it, I'd be going Int based, actually. Though FSoB 20 is nice, if nothing else for never being without a weapon (enchantable at that) and DR 10/epic with Energy Res. The build nongesault I'm using is Wizard 3/War Weaver 5/Halruuan Elder 5/Legacy Champion 4/Incantatrix 3, so from there, if you're allowed to pack double PrC's (seriously, I've never had a DM take issue with it if they're going to do gesault), make sure to get LC 5 and Spellguard 4. Spellguard 5 is nice for the +1 Spell Power, but you'll be at full CL anyhow, and CL 40 if you abuse circle magic. Ur-Priest can get you 9th level divine spells, and a little trickery can get you 9th level divine spells as an archivist too, since you'll qualify for arcane classes from your other side. Archivist basically picks up every other casting class for you, since Wizards can get Sorc-only spells from their Tome of Ancient Lore (along with every spell ever as an arcane Transmutation, but that's a different TO). This just makes things easier :P

[Ferrin]

Why does no one ever mention the Geomancer PrC from Complete Divine for gestalt? It's quite awesome really, especialy considering yo ucan be 100% charisma then, even with your favored soul saves. Not to mention wearing heavy armor without ASF. And some good passive buffs...

[imperialspectre]

Because if the DM is enforcing the "only one PrC at a time" suggestion, then you don't want an "okay" PrC, you want a "really good" PrC. Geomancer isn't "really good" - its spell versatility thing is nice for Arcane Spellsurge, DMM, and being more SAD, but there are better/easier ways to do all of those.

The other reason is that many DMs will want a character to fulfill PrC requirements like "casts 2nd-level arcane and divine spells" on one side of the gestalt progression. If your DM doesn't enforce that, then yes, Geomancer could be okay - but it's still pretty weak, mechanically speaking.

Also, the "drift" traits are kinda weird.

[Ferrin]

Hmm, I can understand that. Someone should make a tier system for gestalt purposes really.