Is Evocation really so bad?

[sonofzeal]

Floating Disk
Shatter
Tiny Hut
Ice Storm
Resilient Sphere
Wall of Force
Contingency
Delayed Blast Fireball
Forcecage
Bigby’s Significant Digit Interposing/Forceful/Grasping/etc Hand


Discuss. =P

[Dogmantra]

It's not that it's bad, it's that other stuff does it better. Like Shadow Evocation.

[Yukitsu]

Most of it is emulated by a line of spells in an otherwise more useful school. In other instances, the ones you listed aren't ones I use, even when I'm a generalist (I've never understood people's infatuation with force cage.) I can get the effects just as well from other schools of magic. Usually conjuration in this case.

[Temet Nosce]

It's already been stated, but it's less that Evocation is bad and more that it has little unique about it to recommend it. There are a few spells which would be nice to have, but it's easy to drop Evocation.

[sonofzeal]

It's not that it's bad, it's that other stuff does it better. Like Shadow Evocation.

Shadow Evocation means you're casting lower level spells, don't scale nearly as well, offer enemies twice the saves, and are basically hosed against things that are immune to mind-affecting. Unless you're using SCM quasi-real shenanigans, I wouldn't consider Shadow Evocation that strong an argument.

Most of it is emulated by a line of spells in an otherwise more useful school. In other instances, the ones you listed aren't ones I use, even when I'm a generalist (I've never understood people's infatuation with force cage.) I can get the effects just as well from other schools of magic. Usually conjuration in this case.

You don't use Wall of Force? Really?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Would you rather do the same thing everyone else is doing better than them (damage), or do stuff that they can never possibly do (every other Wizard school)?

Now, the non-damage Evocation spells are good, but there's only a handful of them, all of which can be replicated by a couple of Illusion spells.

[Siosilvar]

Shadow Evocation
Shadow Evocation, Greater

Mount
Orb of Force (or Acid), Lesser
Rope Trick
Solid Fog
Shadow Evocation
Again, Solid Fog
Craft Contingent Spell feat
... is fire damage.
... costs 1500 gp. Also, Greater Shadow Evocation.
Solid Fog for a third time. Orb of Force (or Acid), Irresistable Dance...

[Yukitsu]

You don't use Wall of Force? Really?

What for?

I fail to understand the utility of casting a spell that makes it harder for me to get at my soon to be victims. I suppose I could use it to cut off their escape routes, but frankly, I enjoy the thrill of the chase.

[Morty]

Evocation isn't bad. It's less useful than other wizard schools, but it doesn't mean it's weak. It's not Evocation's fault that a) Someone decided to make a spell that replicates an entire school and b) Conjuration is way too strong and walks onto Evocation's turf.

[Jergmo]

Shadow Evocation means you're casting lower level spells, don't scale nearly as well, offer enemies twice the saves, and are basically hosed against things that are immune to mind-affecting. Unless you're using SCM quasi-real shenanigans, I wouldn't consider Shadow Evocation that strong an argument.


You don't use Wall of Force? Really?

My players in a villain campaign were trying to use Wall of Force to kill a silver dragon that was strafing their Legions of Terror™. It was a bit annoying, but intelligent, I suppose.

Anyway, the way I see it, Evokers have their place - it's just not as the party's main arcane spellcaster.

[Keld Denar]

Derived from the Latin de (from; out of) and fenestra (window or opening).

Thus, we are given the greatest Evocation ever....Defenestrating Sphere.

[sonofzeal]

It's already been stated, but it's less that Evocation is bad and more that it has little unique about it to recommend it. There are a few spells which would be nice to have, but it's easy to drop Evocation.

People see Evocation as the school for direct damage. I don't think that's fair; the thing it seems based around most strongly is force effects. Virtually all the Force spells ever printed (and there's quite a lot, often very good ones) are in the Evocation school. It seems to me that that alone is a pretty reasonable recommendation of the school; they may not be the most game-shattering (with a few exceptions, like Forcecage + Dimensional Anchor), but they're often the hardest to resist/bypass, and the ones that work most consistently against virtually every monster you'll run into.

[Volkov]

It's great against large groups of enemies, and not much else. But when your attacking entire armies of hundreds, thousands, or even millions, nothing beats evocation.

[woodenbandman]

I would ban it, something I can't say about many other schools.

[aje8]

People see Evocation as the school for direct damage. I don't think that's fair; the thing it seems based around most strongly is force effects. Virtually all the Force spells ever printed (and there's quite a lot, often very good ones) are in the Evocation school. It seems to me that that alone is a pretty reasonable recommendation of the school; they may not be the most game-shattering (with a few exceptions, like Forcecage + Dimensional Anchor), but they're often the hardest to resist/bypass, and the ones that work most consistently against virtually every monster you'll run into.

You know what Byasses everything? Solid Fog.

Unforuntatley for game balance, force effects, while good, aren't enough to not ban the school.

Wall of Force is a fine spell, but Wall of Stone is almost as good and comes with a huge versatile school instead of a quite limited one.

[Volkov]

Evocation is meant for ghost-busting, and blowing up large groups and the occasional type of energy vulnerability exploitation. Anyone who uses it differently is using it wrong.

[ZeroNumerous]

It's great against large groups of enemies, and not much else. But when your attacking entire armies of hundreds, thousands, or even millions, nothing beats evocation.

Gate.

Evocation: The only spells worthwhile in Evocation can be replicated with Shadow Evocation/Greater(IE: Wall of Force, Forcecage, etc), and sometimes to your benefit(ignoring the material component of Forcecage, for example). Otherwise, the cost-vs-benefit is in favor of specialization.

[Temet Nosce]

People see Evocation as the school for direct damage. I don't think that's fair; the thing it seems based around most strongly is force effects. Virtually all the Force spells ever printed (and there's quite a lot, often very good ones) are in the Evocation school. It seems to me that that alone is a pretty reasonable recommendation of the school; they may not be the most game-shattering (with a few exceptions, like Forcecage + Dimensional Anchor), but they're often the hardest to resist/bypass, and the ones that work most consistently against virtually every monster you'll run into.

Sure, I agree that the force spells are great (like you mention, the traditional "caster screw you now" method relies on Forcecage/Dimensional Anchor/Timestop/Celerity/Maw of Chaos which means you have to have Evocation) however, Forcecage isn't much of a staple unless you're doing that due to costs... So it's less of something you have to have than something it's nice to have. Wall of Force is also definitely excellent, but is extremely situational and more importantly can be mostly duplicated by other wall spells (I don't deny it's one of the best but... Really, you could just replace it with Prismatic Wall pretty easily)

Other than that though? I mean really, what about the school is truly irreplaceable? Stuff you can't get elsewhere?

[Indon]

Evocation is a good spell school. It just doesn't have an array of absurdly abusable spells like most of the other schools have.

[sonofzeal]

You know what Byasses everything? Solid Fog.

Incorporeal/ethereal creatures laugh at you.


The point I'm trying to make is that, even inside Core, Evocation has some pretty respectable Battlefield Control power that seems to be pretty much ignored in all discussions of it. I virtually never hear people talk about Force Effects in the context of Evocation, just direct damage (which, admittedly, is rather poor and can be handled by other schools). I'm not saying it's the best school, or even that it can compete with Conjuration or Transmutation. Still,
I don't see why it's always first on the chopping block, as Illusion/Enchantment/Divination/Abjuration all have their own weaknesses too. I suppose the only major failing of the school is that it tries to compete with one of the Big Two. On its own merits, I think it's surprisingly decent and rather underrated.

[Keld Denar]

Evocation's new campaign slogan:

EVOCATION! At least its not as bad as Enchantment!

[Yora]

Then I research a spell "immunity against all types of energy".

Now it is.

[ZeroNumerous]

EVOCATION! At least its not as bad as Enchantment!

But when you're specializing in anything other than Divination, what do you chuck? Evocation/Enchantment.

[Temet Nosce]

But when you're specializing in anything other than Divination, what do you chuck? Evocation/Enchantment.

Actually, I disagree about Enchantment. True, unless you use the Nightmare Spinner variant it's not that great at high levels (and even with it, the Will save issue is a problem) but it DOES offer access to spells you are not going to get elsewhere. I tend not to drop Enchantment unless I feel I really need to, my default second drop is Necromancy. You lose some debuffs, and ability damage spells but you can get most of that stuff elsewhere.

[Yora]

Well, in all fairness, I would say that 95% of all D&D players don't know that Conjuration is a powerful school and get kicks out of Evocation and Enchantment.

[Tyndmyr]

Floating Disk
Tiny Hut
Bigby’s Significant Digit Interposing/Forceful/Grasping/etc Hand


Discuss. =P

Huh? Im not gonna get into all of those, but floating disk is pretty much a non-combat utility spell for carrying stuff. Not really all that important once you get bags of holding, flight, etc. Usefulness gone in a flash.

Why bother with Tiny Hut when you have a Rope trick?

The various bigby's spells are kinda weak.

If it's not a force spell and it's in evocation, it's not worth messing with.

[Eldariel]

Actually, I disagree about Enchantment. True, unless you use the Nightmare Spinner variant it's not that great at high levels (and even with it, the Will save issue is a problem) but it DOES offer access to spells you are not going to get elsewhere. I tend not to drop Enchantment unless I feel I really need to, my default second drop is Necromancy. You lose some debuffs, and ability damage spells but you can get most of that stuff elsewhere.

The school isn't weak, but has the most redundant stuff unless you're making a social beast Charming folk left and right. It also has nice buffs, but Transmutation and Illusion are much better in that regard. I'd always ban Enchantment first unless I was making a very socially focused character.

[Keld Denar]

This is true. Just because its not the most mechanically strong thing EVAR, doesn't mean everyone does it that way.

Otherwise everyone would only play Wizards and Druids and Clerics...and maybe Artificers and Archivists.

But people play melee characters. They play rogues. They play a lot of stuff that is "sub-optimial". Just because its weaker mechanically, doesn't mean its less fun.

Of course, this doesn't make it any LESS weak, mechanically speaking, just more forgivable.

[Myrmex]

Flashburst, a 3rd level Evocation in FRCS, is a long range spell that blinds all creatures in a 140' area (will negates).

[edit]
Evocation is a really great school, but most of the really great stuff is on divine lists.

[Temet Nosce]

The school isn't weak, but has the most redundant stuff unless you're making a social beast Charming folk left and right. It also has nice buffs, but Transmutation and Illusion are much better in that regard. I'd always ban Enchantment first unless I was making a very socially focused character.

I wouldn't recommend it for buffs alone really, but honestly I get a lot of mileage out of Enchantment in comparison with other schools, particularly if you start at low levels. Sure, if you're starting at level 20 and you don't have high DCs the school isn't going to offer you much, but charm person can be more effective alone used carefully at low levels than some other entire schools and then there's Sleep (everyone's favorite low level save or die!), Heroism, Hideous Laughter...