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Thread: Is Evocation really so bad?
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2009-09-26, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Is Evocation really so bad?
Floating Disk
Shatter
Tiny Hut
Ice Storm
Resilient Sphere
Wall of Force
Contingency
Delayed Blast Fireball
Forcecage
Bigby’sSignificant DigitInterposing/Forceful/Grasping/etc Hand
Discuss. =P
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2009-09-26, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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- With Uncle Crassius
Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
It's not that it's bad, it's that other stuff does it better. Like Shadow Evocation.
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2009-09-26, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
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- The great state of denial
Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
Most of it is emulated by a line of spells in an otherwise more useful school. In other instances, the ones you listed aren't ones I use, even when I'm a generalist (I've never understood people's infatuation with force cage.) I can get the effects just as well from other schools of magic. Usually conjuration in this case.
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Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.
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2009-09-26, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
It's already been stated, but it's less that Evocation is bad and more that it has little unique about it to recommend it. There are a few spells which would be nice to have, but it's easy to drop Evocation.
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2009-09-26, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
Shadow Evocation means you're casting lower level spells, don't scale nearly as well, offer enemies twice the saves, and are basically hosed against things that are immune to mind-affecting. Unless you're using SCM quasi-real shenanigans, I wouldn't consider Shadow Evocation that strong an argument.
You don't use Wall of Force? Really?
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2009-09-26, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2005
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- Back in the USSR
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Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
Would you rather do the same thing everyone else is doing better than them (damage), or do stuff that they can never possibly do (every other Wizard school)?
Now, the non-damage Evocation spells are good, but there's only a handful of them, all of which can be replicated by a couple of Illusion spells.Last edited by Nerd-o-rama; 2009-09-26 at 11:24 AM.
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2009-09-26, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
Shadow Evocation
Shadow Evocation, Greater
Mount
Orb of Force (or Acid), Lesser
Rope Trick
Solid Fog
Shadow Evocation
Again, Solid Fog
Craft Contingent Spell feat
... is fire damage.
... costs 1500 gp. Also, Greater Shadow Evocation.
Solid Fog for a third time. Orb of Force (or Acid), Irresistable Dance...ze/zir | she/her
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2009-09-26, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
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- The great state of denial
Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.
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2009-09-26, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Poland
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Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
Evocation isn't bad. It's less useful than other wizard schools, but it doesn't mean it's weak. It's not Evocation's fault that a) Someone decided to make a spell that replicates an entire school and b) Conjuration is way too strong and walks onto Evocation's turf.
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2009-09-26, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
My players in a villain campaign were trying to use Wall of Force to kill a silver dragon that was strafing their Legions of Terror™. It was a bit annoying, but intelligent, I suppose.
Anyway, the way I see it, Evokers have their place - it's just not as the party's main arcane spellcaster.Last edited by Jergmo; 2009-09-26 at 11:28 AM.
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2009-09-26, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- Seattle, WA
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Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
Derived from the Latin de (from; out of) and fenestra (window or opening).
Thus, we are given the greatest Evocation ever....Defenestrating Sphere.
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2009-09-26, 11:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
People see Evocation as the school for direct damage. I don't think that's fair; the thing it seems based around most strongly is force effects. Virtually all the Force spells ever printed (and there's quite a lot, often very good ones) are in the Evocation school. It seems to me that that alone is a pretty reasonable recommendation of the school; they may not be the most game-shattering (with a few exceptions, like Forcecage + Dimensional Anchor), but they're often the hardest to resist/bypass, and the ones that work most consistently against virtually every monster you'll run into.
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2009-09-26, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
It's great against large groups of enemies, and not much else. But when your attacking entire armies of hundreds, thousands, or even millions, nothing beats evocation.
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2009-09-26, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
I would ban it, something I can't say about many other schools.
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2009-09-26, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
People see Evocation as the school for direct damage. I don't think that's fair; the thing it seems based around most strongly is force effects. Virtually all the Force spells ever printed (and there's quite a lot, often very good ones) are in the Evocation school. It seems to me that that alone is a pretty reasonable recommendation of the school; they may not be the most game-shattering (with a few exceptions, like Forcecage + Dimensional Anchor), but they're often the hardest to resist/bypass, and the ones that work most consistently against virtually every monster you'll run into.
Unforuntatley for game balance, force effects, while good, aren't enough to not ban the school.
Wall of Force is a fine spell, but Wall of Stone is almost as good and comes with a huge versatile school instead of a quite limited one.Last edited by aje8; 2009-09-26 at 11:32 AM.
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2009-09-26, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
Evocation is meant for ghost-busting, and blowing up large groups and the occasional type of energy vulnerability exploitation. Anyone who uses it differently is using it wrong.
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2009-09-26, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
Gate.
Evocation: The only spells worthwhile in Evocation can be replicated with Shadow Evocation/Greater(IE: Wall of Force, Forcecage, etc), and sometimes to your benefit(ignoring the material component of Forcecage, for example). Otherwise, the cost-vs-benefit is in favor of specialization.
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2009-09-26, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
Sure, I agree that the force spells are great (like you mention, the traditional "caster screw you now" method relies on Forcecage/Dimensional Anchor/Timestop/Celerity/Maw of Chaos which means you have to have Evocation) however, Forcecage isn't much of a staple unless you're doing that due to costs... So it's less of something you have to have than something it's nice to have. Wall of Force is also definitely excellent, but is extremely situational and more importantly can be mostly duplicated by other wall spells (I don't deny it's one of the best but... Really, you could just replace it with Prismatic Wall pretty easily)
Other than that though? I mean really, what about the school is truly irreplaceable? Stuff you can't get elsewhere?
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2009-09-26, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
Evocation is a good spell school. It just doesn't have an array of absurdly abusable spells like most of the other schools have.
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2009-09-26, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
Incorporeal/ethereal creatures laugh at you.
The point I'm trying to make is that, even inside Core, Evocation has some pretty respectable Battlefield Control power that seems to be pretty much ignored in all discussions of it. I virtually never hear people talk about Force Effects in the context of Evocation, just direct damage (which, admittedly, is rather poor and can be handled by other schools). I'm not saying it's the best school, or even that it can compete with Conjuration or Transmutation. Still,
I don't see why it's always first on the chopping block, as Illusion/Enchantment/Divination/Abjuration all have their own weaknesses too. I suppose the only major failing of the school is that it tries to compete with one of the Big Two. On its own merits, I think it's surprisingly decent and rather underrated.
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2009-09-26, 11:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
Evocation's new campaign slogan:
EVOCATION! At least its not as bad as Enchantment!
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2009-09-26, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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- Germany
Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
Then I research a spell "immunity against all types of energy".
Now it is.Last edited by Yora; 2009-09-26 at 11:48 AM.
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2009-09-26, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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2009-09-26, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
Actually, I disagree about Enchantment. True, unless you use the Nightmare Spinner variant it's not that great at high levels (and even with it, the Will save issue is a problem) but it DOES offer access to spells you are not going to get elsewhere. I tend not to drop Enchantment unless I feel I really need to, my default second drop is Necromancy. You lose some debuffs, and ability damage spells but you can get most of that stuff elsewhere.
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2009-09-26, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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- Germany
Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
Well, in all fairness, I would say that 95% of all D&D players don't know that Conjuration is a powerful school and get kicks out of Evocation and Enchantment.
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2009-09-26, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
Huh? Im not gonna get into all of those, but floating disk is pretty much a non-combat utility spell for carrying stuff. Not really all that important once you get bags of holding, flight, etc. Usefulness gone in a flash.
Why bother with Tiny Hut when you have a Rope trick?
The various bigby's spells are kinda weak.
If it's not a force spell and it's in evocation, it's not worth messing with.
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2009-09-26, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
The school isn't weak, but has the most redundant stuff unless you're making a social beast Charming folk left and right. It also has nice buffs, but Transmutation and Illusion are much better in that regard. I'd always ban Enchantment first unless I was making a very socially focused character.
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2009-09-26, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
This is true. Just because its not the most mechanically strong thing EVAR, doesn't mean everyone does it that way.
Otherwise everyone would only play Wizards and Druids and Clerics...and maybe Artificers and Archivists.
But people play melee characters. They play rogues. They play a lot of stuff that is "sub-optimial". Just because its weaker mechanically, doesn't mean its less fun.
Of course, this doesn't make it any LESS weak, mechanically speaking, just more forgivable.
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2009-09-26, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
Flashburst, a 3rd level Evocation in FRCS, is a long range spell that blinds all creatures in a 140' area (will negates).
[edit]
Evocation is a really great school, but most of the really great stuff is on divine lists.Last edited by Myrmex; 2009-09-26 at 12:08 PM.
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2009-09-26, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: Is Evocation really so bad?
I wouldn't recommend it for buffs alone really, but honestly I get a lot of mileage out of Enchantment in comparison with other schools, particularly if you start at low levels. Sure, if you're starting at level 20 and you don't have high DCs the school isn't going to offer you much, but charm person can be more effective alone used carefully at low levels than some other entire schools and then there's Sleep (everyone's favorite low level save or die!), Heroism, Hideous Laughter...