is being a lich worth it? are there other transformations?

[taltamir]

Is being a lich worth it? sure, the abilities are nice, but don't you gain an LA? (also, sucks for you if you have a godly con score).

is there any other such transformation?

anything that doesn't require you to give up on your humanity and maybe even something for good characters? (i think i remember hearing about "baelnorns" or some such)

[Paulus]

Is being a lich worth it? sure, the abilities are nice, but don't you gain an LA? (also, sucks for you if you have a godly con score).

is there any other such transformation?

anything that doesn't require you to give up on your humanity and maybe even something for good characters? (i think i remember hearing about "baelnorns" or some such)

Aside from all the were temples? Erm, the various blood type temples, Dragon... fiend... but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for. or is it?

[arguskos]

Baelnorns have rules in the Monsters of Faerun booklet. They're 3.0 and hard to track down, but they are there. It's really nothing to write home about though, they just make you a "good lich" with a few abilities replaced with more "good friendly" ones.

[KellKheraptis]

My vote goes for Walker in the Waste if you want lichdom. Do it right and become a nigh-unkillable dry lich, and if possible, snag a swarm template to go with it (REALLY unkillable then).

[arguskos]

My vote goes for Walker in the Waste if you want lichdom. Do it right and become a nigh-unkillable dry lich, and if possible, snag a swarm template to go with it (REALLY unkillable then).

Eh... why bother? Standard liches are QUITE capable of being utterly unkillable. I'll grant that being a swarm is great for survival, but really, if you have a phylactery, you're all good.

[KellKheraptis]

Eh... why bother? Standard liches are QUITE capable of being utterly unkillable. I'll grant that being a swarm is great for survival, but really, if you have a phylactery, you're all good.

And that's MY point. Why bother with only ONE phylactery, when you can have 5?

[Gorgondantess]

And no, being a lich is not worth it. Why play a nigh-unkillable 17th level wizard when you can play an unkillable 21st level wizard?
(Okay, maybe killable by a savvier wizard of greater power, but you get my drift.)

[taltamir]

ok... so baelnorn is just "good lich"... lichs have a +4 LA adjustment...
I got one vote for "no"... Yea lichs are neigh unkillable. But humans can be resurrected. a 4 levels higher wizard can do a lot more, and if he dies, well thats why you have a party priest. or better yet, an ally from you have entered into a cross resurrection agreement with...

Actually, I Would make that into a business... "making sure you are resurrected should you die". Cater to nobles.

What about Elans? I recall reading about them, but not which book they are from.

[Tokiko Mima]

In general, being a lich is great for NPC's, since it's a bunch of useful protections and attack abilities and the CR bump is minor. Since the PC's will be getting close and personal with the Lich (usually) it's abilities actually get used.

For PC characters, a full caster should never under any circumstances give up caster levels, because no LA template in the game is as awesome as what they'll be getting via additional spell access at a lower level. It might be ok to accept some LA at 17-18+ when you have 9th level spells, but whatever you get has to be better than more 9th level spells. Lich is not a good idea before then, and it's +4 LA makes it worse.

Probably the best way to become a lich is to use Sandstorm and the Walker in the Wastes PrC. It's an 8/10 progression class, and dry lich is superior to lich in most respects.

[KellKheraptis]

And no, being a lich is not worth it. Why play a nigh-unkillable 17th level wizard when you can play an unkillable 21st level wizard?
(Okay, maybe killable by a savvier wizard of greater power, but you get my drift.)

Ultimately, this is true. But if you're dead set on it, Dry Lich all the way. And I had this debate on another thread...once you have mythal-tech, you are unkillable by anything other than your own stupidity you don't have a contingency for. Literally.

[taltamir]

I am not actually interested in becoming one, just curious.
As for walker in the wastes and dry lich... what books are they in?

[Myrmex]

In general, being a lich is great for NPC's, since it's a bunch of useful protections and attack abilities and the CR bump is minor. Since the PC's will be getting close and personal with the Lich (usually) it's abilities actually get used.

For PC characters, a full caster should never under any circumstances give up caster levels, because no LA template in the game is as awesome as what they'll be getting via additional spell access at a lower level. It might be ok to accept some LA at 17-18+ when you have 9th level spells, but whatever you get has to be better than more 9th level spells. Lich is not a good idea before then, and it's +4 LA makes it worse.

Probably the best way to become a lich is to use Sandstorm and the Walker in the Wastes PrC. It's an 8/10 progression class, and dry lich is superior to lich in most respects.

Re: NPCs
Liches & Vampires have the same CR adjustment, but vampires come with way more sweet abilities.

[Forbiddenwar]

Re: NPCs
Liches & Vampires have the same CR adjustment, but vampires come with way more sweet abilities.

Well, there is the small problem of vampires not being able to be more than 9 miles away from their coffin or face permanent distruction, or not being immune to polymorph, cold or electricity. Or recoiling from mirrors, holy symbols, garlic. Or being unable to cross water. Or unable to enter homes. Or having to avoid direct sunlight, or water, or pointy sticks.

[Yora]

I say that NPCs don't advance by gaining XP, that's just a device to track PC progress by the gm. So for an NPC Lich, the cost is only the money, and a rotten body.

[The Dark Fiddler]

What about Elans? I recall reading about them, but not which book they are from.

Only Elans I know (baring our lovable bard) are from the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

They're in the SRD though. They don't look that bad, but they get a Charisma penalty. Pretty odd considering who shares a name with them.

[Bayar]

Only Elans I know (baring our lovable bard) are from the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

They're in the SRD though. They don't look that bad, but they get a Charisma penalty. Pretty odd considering who shares a name with them.

Until you get those 2 feats and go psionic...then they become a tank.

[Volkov]

The lich is worth it, as long as your phylactery is safe, you cannot be killed for good. And eventually, you can become the ludicrously powerful demi-lich. Plus, you look like an awesome skeleton, you have damage reduction, a boost to mental stats, natural armor, immunity to electricity and unwanted polymorphs, and you can touch someone to make sure they never move, ever again.

[Volkov]

Ultimately, this is true. But if you're dead set on it, Dry Lich all the way. And I had this debate on another thread...once you have mythal-tech, you are unkillable by anything other than your own stupidity you don't have a contingency for. Literally.

Unless something kills you before you managed to develop and cast your first epic spell. I.E A DM ****move.

[Volkov]

ok... so baelnorn is just "good lich"... lichs have a +4 LA adjustment...
I got one vote for "no"... Yea lichs are neigh unkillable. But humans can be resurrected. a 4 levels higher wizard can do a lot more, and if he dies, well thats why you have a party priest. or better yet, an ally from you have entered into a cross resurrection agreement with...

Actually, I Would make that into a business... "making sure you are resurrected should you die". Cater to nobles.

What about Elans? I recall reading about them, but not which book they are from.

That loss of a level really hurts.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Until you get those 2 feats and go psionic...then they become a tank.

I'm torn between asking what two feats and why they matter, and sticking to my promise of not using uber-powerful builds from the internet because then my group would be pissed at me.

...I guess I could just keep it in the back of my mind and not use it.

[kamikasei]

Elans have no maximum age, but they're in no way indestructible - an Elan can be killed just like any human character could be. Of course, unlike a lich, they're resurrectable.

[Volkov]

Elans have no maximum age, but they're in no way indestructible - an Elan can be killed just like any human character could be. Of course, unlike a lich, they're resurrectable.

There is revive undead. It's raise dead for the undead.

[Tokiko Mima]

That loss of a level really hurts.

Casters concerned about level loss are advised to use spells like true resurrection.

The correct high level spells can make you more immortal than even the most powerful template. It's all about getting as much access to spells as possible, at the lowest level possible.

[Volkov]

Casters concerned about level loss are advised to use spells like true resurrection.

The correct high level spells can make you more immortal than even the most powerful template. It's all about getting as much access to spells as possible, at the lowest level possible.

And you can't access that at level 11.

[Johel]

No need for epic for a lich to become unkillable, though.

Discern Location can't find an object if nobody but you has ever touched the object. Make sure to Soul bind any person who has ever touched your phylactery.

Permanency + Prismatic Sphere can block most threats. Put the phylactery and the soulgems inside of the sphere.

Symbols of Insanity and Symbols of Death will take care of most intruders.

Permanency + Mage’s Private Sanctum can prevent the place from being scry uppon.

Teleport Object can call the phylactery to you if you have any doubt about its security.

The only weakness is that you can't be warn if somebody enter the area while you are far away. If somebody can think of a way that can send a warning to you when you are on the other side of the continent and that doesn't rely on somebody else to send the warning, then the Lich is indeed invinsible, as it can just call back the phylactery once somebody dispel the Prismatic Sphere.

[Tokiko Mima]

And you can't access that at level 11.

Where are you getting the level 11 from?

[Volkov]

Where are you getting the level 11 from?

Minimum level to become a lich.

[Jack_Simth]

The only weakness is that you can't be warn if somebody enter the area while you are far away. If somebody can think of a way that can send a warning to you when you are on the other side of the continent and that doesn't rely on somebody else to send the warning, then the Lich is indeed invinsible, as it can just call back the phylactery once somebody dispel the Prismatic Sphere.

Let me introduce you to a little spell called Simulacrum, that lets you create a totally loyal minion in an Instantaneous manner, that can be as intelligent as you are. There's also Ice Assasin from Frostburn, which is a more powerful version.

[Tokiko Mima]

Then at that point the choice is whether you'd like to be a 15th level wizard casting 8th level spells, or an 11th level lich casting 6th level spells. ECL 15 WBL of 200k gp could afford a true resurrection, I would hope. Of course, finding the caster is a pain and it's still 25k gp for the diamond, but if the level is important to you, there ya go. It's not impossible at all.

Also important is that as a PC lich saddled with +4 LA, you won't be able to get 9th level spells before the level 20 deadline when Epic rules halt spellcasting advancement. This is bad because you won't be able to qualify for Improved Spell Capacity or Epic Spellcasting... ever.

You could use a fast progression PrC to make up the difference?

[Volkov]

Then at that point the choice is whether you'd like to be a 15th level wizard casting 8th level spells, or an 11th level lich casting 6th level spells. ECL 15 WBL of 200k gp could afford a true resurrection, I would hope. Of course, finding the caster is a pain and it's still 25k gp for the diamond, but if the level is important to you, there ya go. It's not impossible at all.

Also important is that as a PC lich saddled with +4 LA, you won't be able to get 9th level spells before the level 20 deadline when Epic rules halt spellcasting advancement. This is bad because you won't be able to qualify for Improved Spell Capacity or Epic Spellcasting... ever.

You could use a fast progression PrC to make up the difference?

There is one enemy true resurrection cannot defeat. Old age.