[4E] fighting differently while bloodied- a rule suggestion

[Kol Korran]

i'm not sure if this belongs here or in homebrew. it might get moved.

i am preparing for a new campaign and an idea has been running in my head- i wanted to show bloodied characters changing their way of fighting, whether becoming more cautious, more bold, more reckelss, and so on. i wanted to show a change when the characters get wounded fairly seriously... also, i thought it might make battle more interesting, as characters (as well as perhaps monsters?) could change the way they fight a bit

so, my idea was something on these lines: a character, upon character creation may choose 1-2 "behvioral changes", which is basically a simple set of modifiers that apply when it reches the bloodied state. these modifiers are supposed to represent a different behaviour. the modifiers could be to attack rolls, to damage, to defenses, maybe to attacks with daily/ encounter/ at will powers, or maybe something else (suggestions welcomed)

this exists to a certain degree by various feats, powers, and racial abilities such as the dragonborn's +1 to attackswhen bloodied

i think it's importent that overall, the bloodied condition modifiers should be at equel level to non bloodied modifiers- not making the characters tougher, just different.
now to my questions:
1- do you think this would add to the game experience at all, or do you think it will overcomplicate things/ be tedious/ change power balance? how would you deal with bloodied reflecting a different attitude? sure, the players can just roleplay it, but a mechanical rule might give it more edge. i really don't know about this one.

2- do you think the character automatically reverts to the different mood when bloodied, or can it choose whether or not to? i think it could choose, but would like opinions

3- how many behvioral changes per character? i think 2 is good- it has choices, but not too many choices as to complicate things, but again- opinions are welcomed

4- what about the point i made about balance between bloodied and non bloodied modifiers? i didn't want to make the bloodied more powerfull because that will be a change of balance and will just require to adjust monster's power level as well.

5- lastly- if you like the idea, and have ideas you think would fit, please post them. i am fairly new to 4E, so i'll let you people start before i embarass myself.

thanks a bunch.
Kol

[pasko77]

i'm not sure if this belongs here or in homebrew. it might get moved.

i am preparing for a new campaign and an idea has been running in my head- i wanted to show bloodied characters changing their way of fighting, whether becoming more cautious, more bold, more reckelss, and so on. i wanted to show a change when the characters get wounded fairly seriously... also, i thought it might make battle more interesting, as characters (as well as perhaps monsters?) could change the way they fight a bit

so, my idea was something on these lines: a character, upon character creation may choose 1-2 "behvioral changes", which is basically a simple set of modifiers that apply when it reches the bloodied state. these modifiers are supposed to represent a different behaviour. the modifiers could be to attack rolls, to damage, to defenses, maybe to attacks with daily/ encounter/ at will powers, or maybe something else (suggestions welcomed)

this exists to a certain degree by various feats, powers, and racial abilities such as the dragonborn's +1 to attackswhen bloodied

i think it's importent that overall, the bloodied condition modifiers should be at equel level to non bloodied modifiers- not making the characters tougher, just different.
now to my questions:
1- do you think this would add to the game experience at all, or do you think it will overcomplicate things/ be tedious/ change power balance? how would you deal with bloodied reflecting a different attitude? sure, the players can just roleplay it, but a mechanical rule might give it more edge. i really don't know about this one.

2- do you think the character automatically reverts to the different mood when bloodied, or can it choose whether or not to? i think it could choose, but would like opinions

3- how many behvioral changes per character? i think 2 is good- it has choices, but not too many choices as to complicate things, but again- opinions are welcomed

4- what about the point i made about balance between bloodied and non bloodied modifiers? i didn't want to make the bloodied more powerfull because that will be a change of balance and will just require to adjust monster's power level as well.

5- lastly- if you like the idea, and have ideas you think would fit, please post them. i am fairly new to 4E, so i'll let you people start before i embarass myself.

thanks a bunch.
Kol

I like the idea, as long as modifiers are small it adds texture to characters.
You can give one modifier per character, ranging from:
- +1 to hit, -1 to all defenses (angry)
- +1 def, -1 hit (scared, cautious)
- +1 when not bloodied, -2 when bloodied (scared, confused)
- etc.

The character shoud not be able to choose wheter to slip or not in this behavior, it is an emotional response.

I think bloodied modifiers should be higher than non bloodied, because most of the time you have half or more HP. At least, if you are a ranged striker, you can expect to be full hit points for a number of rounds.

Hope it helps,
Pasko

[Reinboom]

Expansion: Give more benefits to stats and moods.
Each stat of a 16 or higher provides a representative 'mood' one can kick in to.
For example, intelligence or wisdom may allow the trigger 'cautious'.

[Kurald Galain]

Thing is, 4E is already full of small modifiers that feel like they make a difference but usually don't, and that includes all conditional +1s and -1s during combat. These tend to slow down gameplay for no real benefit, and are a prime cause for things like "I hit AC 18. Oh, I meant 17. Oh no, it was 18 after all. No wait, make that 19."

So your suggestion is essentially the same. It slows down combat and won't make a difference most of the time. I don't think that giving a +1 to damage while bloodied makes the character "feel" differently, except that it may give to cheese like "don't heal me because I'll lose my bonus".

Note, by the way, that a +1 to hit is (much) more powerful than a +1 to damage or a +1 to defense, and that none of these modifiers have a noticeable effect game balance.

If you want to make a difference here, have each player choose three at-will powers (four for humans or druids). One of these can be used at any time. The second can only be used while you're not bloodied. The third can only be used while you are bloodied. $.02

[Kaiyanwang]

Sorry, maybe my remark makes no sense but.. when your PC is threatened, or pissed off, or fears for the health of one companion, and so on..

he will probably use an action point.. Maybe I'm wrong, but action point should represent well this.

Of course, they are only positive bonuses, but can cover a lot of situation, and maybe stereotypes..

[Kurald Galain]

Sorry, maybe my remark makes no sense but.. when your PC is threatened, or pissed off, or fears for the health of one companion, and so on..

...or when it's the first round of the second encounter that day...

[Kaiyanwang]

...or when it's the first round of the second encounter that day...

Or you missed with your daily I guess. using pasko77 rules, , should be +1 to hit, -1 to def.

[Kol Korran]

good points Kurald, Kaiyanwang... i was fearing it would be redundant. the action points are specific shining moments though, not exactly what i aimed for.
anyway, thanks for the input, i always appreciate outside advice. i'll drop the idea.

[Ravens_cry]

Expansion: Give more benefits to stats and moods.
Each stat of a 16 or higher provides a representative 'mood' one can kick in to.
For example, intelligence or wisdom may allow the trigger 'cautious'.

Personally, I don't think I really like that idea. I liked Kol Korran plan, because as pasko77 said "it adds texture". A fighter whose is more cautious when he gets injured, the spell caster who it just makes mad, why not? It's a bit of extra flavour to your character that has a minor effect. Having it predetermined before hand would take that little choice out of the players hands.
It is a bit of extra bookkeeping though.

[Break]

If you want to make a difference here, have each player choose three at-will powers (four for humans or druids). One of these can be used at any time. The second can only be used while you're not bloodied. The third can only be used while you are bloodied. $.02

I agree with the first portion of your post in that small bonuses would only slow things down, and I like the general thrust of this suggestion. There is a problem, though.

Let me put it this way - can you think of three at-wills that you'd want to use for each class? Especially if you're, say, a ranger.

It might be better to make an encounter power toggle depending on bloodied status, rather than the at-wills.

Overall, I like the idea of having your character change noticeably depending on whether you're bloodied or not, as long as the changes are just that - noticeable. If you're still set on bonuses, though, Kol, I think it'd be better to make them larger. Small bonuses would be less likely to break the game, yes, but they don't really represent much of a change. It's only sizable shifts between attack and defense that'll really change your game plan.

[PsyBlade]

I agree with Break. A Power toggled for usability by your status should be an Encounter type ability. I've played a few games where you can only use certain abilities while on your last legs. Hmm... Maybe make it so that a Daily Power is usable as an Encounter ability if you are Bloodied during that Encounter, or if you start the Encounter Bloodied then when you reach 1/4 of your HP. I don't play all that often, so my $.02 isn't worth much.

[themocaw]

I think these should be dailies that trigger when bloodied if they're going to be more significant than a small bonus. Also because, well, you can't get angry ALL the time. Unless you're an Angry Marine, but then you've got other problems.

[Tiki Snakes]

I believe that perhaps the way to inspire such behaviour change at bloodied is to roleplay it a bit more/differently, perhaps?

It's something I've only really toyed with, so far, though. Basically, you are more or less fine (daytime tv fighting style) while you are unbloodied. When you become blooded, you have picked up a wound of some kind, an injury, a nasty cut, whatever. For pc's, the idea is to bring home that it is a life and death matter, and the contrast between the knocked-about ruff and tumble of combat up until that point with a nice description of some decent bleeding, or a couple of nice 'scars to be' or what have you, should help ram the point home.

For monsters, it should represent the point where those who aren't mindless (ie, not zombies) and who aren't 300 style hardcore military sorts (Hobgoblins with nothing to lose) start looking for a way out of the situation. If your enemy breaks and flees, etc, at bloodied rather than simply fighting to the death, it will also possibly speed up combat a little, whilst allowing for much greater contrast with fights 'to the death', which should as a result, feel like they matter more?

That's the theory.

[Gralamin]

Break linked this thread on IRC, and so I'll throw in some of my ideas.

Has it is, the goal you are heading towards isn't reached very well: To become noticeable different you have to either have a significant increase of power in one area, or consistently gain a bonus in one area, when the amount of tome matters. Its very rare in 4e for the second one to matter: Things are decided in the first few rounds, with the rest mop up. If your more aggressive throughout mop up, it really won't be noticed. The first is thus what you need.

Having multiple things switch to usable with bloodied also doesn't help. Some classes would be devastated by it, others would barely notice, depending on implementation. Having substantial bonuses on bloodied also wouldn't help much, it would make it far more important to be bloodied for Bonus XY then Dragonborn Racial Feature. And in either of these cases soulfangs go from useless items to amazing, since in two rounds they bring you to bloodied no matter what.

I'd propose to take a single Encounter power, probably the second highest level one, and making it unable to be used until your bloodied. Call it a "Signature Finisher" and give it some bonuses to hit and damage. Take an at-will power, and make it only usable when not bloodied. Call it a "Signature Attack" and give it a slight bonus to hit and give you +1 to a defense when you use it (maybe make it so it cannot be, say, twin-strike). This would make a characters game plan focus on using the Signature Attack until bloodied. Once Bloodied, they focus on more varied attacks and use the Signature Finisher as a way of hitting hard. It's not perfect, and I can think of plenty of problems with it, but it at least seems like an intresting idea.

[Kurald Galain]

Let me put it this way - can you think of three at-wills that you'd want to use for each class? Especially if you're, say, a ranger.

It might be better to make an encounter power toggle depending on bloodied status, rather than the at-wills.

It's true that there are numerous builds that don't have three suitable at-will powers. However, there are also numerous builds that don't have two suitable encounter powers at some level.

Also, if you rule that a character can use encounter A if bloodied, or encounter power B if not, then it's possible for him to use A frequently before becoming bloodied, and if so, B will never come into play. This applies especially to ranged characters, who are less likely to become bloodied in general.

[Artanis]

Hmm...what about a condition-specific kicker, similar to what a lot of Warlock and Sorcerer powers have? Like a power could deal X damage and slow when you aren't bloodied, but deal X damage and push when you are bloodied.