[3.5] Why remove Evocation?

[Thunder Hammer]

I've noticed some comments for wizards/sorcs banning evocation for becoming specailized, may I ask why?

What schools provide better Direct damage spells? And more importantly, which spells are superior to classics like "Fireball" and "Lightning Bolt"??

thanks!

[deuxhero]

"Roll a fortitude save or die" and "roll a will save or be turned into a helpless creature" to start with.

[Ernir]

There was a thread on this not long ago at all. Lots of discussion in there you will probably find relevant.


And since I am posting, here's my 2cp:

Evocation is often banned because a large portion of the school can be substituted for by the others.
I also think it is a bit underrated, but yes. In many situations, it is often possible to produce the same results using spells from other schools.

What schools provide better Direct damage spells? And more importantly, which spells are superior to classics like "Fireball" and "Lightning Bolt"??

The Orb of Fire/Force/stuff from Complete Arcane are the usual examples.

[taltamir]

there are direct damage spells in almost all schools. And direct damage is not the best way to do things anyways.
Tons of conjuration, necromancy, and even trasmutation (disintegrate).
Specializing means having 1 more spell per day per level. which means double or triple (if focused specialized) your spells per day in most levels when you first get them. (3 instead of 1 if you focus specialize)

Frankly I'd rule most of those spells to be evocation instead of their listed schools, since it is unfair to evocation that all its capabilities are duplicated by other schools. But even then, you still have a bunch of "save or die" or "save of lose"...
For example: baleful polymorph enemy into a newborn puppy. or a toad.
finger of death, disintegrate (not an energy spell, a force effect), etc

[jiriku]

I've noticed some comments for wizards/sorcs banning evocation for becoming specailized, may I ask why?

What schools provide better Direct damage spells? And more importantly, which spells are superior to classics like "Fireball" and "Lightning Bolt"??

thanks!

1) Conjuration may not provide "better" direct damage spells, but it does provide acceptable replacements.

2) blast of flame, the orb series, disintigrate, horrid wilting, night's caress, arc of lightning, lightning leap, acid breath, acid storm to name a few.

3) I'm not sure I 100% agree with it, but the consensus around here is also that a wizard is better off controlling the battlefield and buffing/debuffing or neutralizing enemies and leaving direct damage to his allies. Evocation has few spells to accomplish those things. Personally, I agree with that philosophy at lower levels, but at higher levels, assuming the damage dealers in your group play non-optimized characters (which is pretty common) area direct damage has its place. Of course, at higher levels, all those conjuration, transmutation, and necromancy spells that I mentioned are available....

[Yukitsu]

I don't think I've cast a damage spell when I really meant it since I played an orbizard. Which incidently, is a conjurer.

[taltamir]

well... levels 1 through 4 there is absolutely nothing that does direct damage that is worth casting... not when things like web, glitterdust, or grease can insta win a battle, while nothing will die from a direct damage spell you cast at this level.
level 5 you get fireball for 5d5... so, people, what are some of the better uses fo a level 3 spell instead of fireball? (I know they are there, I am looking for specific suggestions)

[jiriku]

well... levels 1 through 4 there is absolutely nothing that does direct damage that is worth casting... not when things like web, glitterdust, or grease can insta win a battle, while nothing will die from a direct damage spell you cast at this level.
level 5 you get fireball for 5d5... so, people, what are some of the better uses fo a level 3 spell instead of fireball? (I know they are there, I am looking for specific suggestions)

Let's give a big hell yeah to our main man...stinking cloud (conjuration)! Or, for single target goodness, shivering touch (necromancy).

[Yukitsu]

On my side of the fence it's usually phantom steed (for travel and kiting with reserves/crossbows) and sleet storm. At that level, I can't always prepare more than that.

[Korivan]

There is still some very nice things in Evocation. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

But still lets look at this from a practical view.

Necromancy-"Die, or be debuffed to the point my kitten familer will eat you"

Enchantment-"You are mine"

Illusion-"Your limits is your imagination"

Conjuration-"Teleportation, reinforcments, no-save damage dealers...etc."

Transmutation-"A big school, tons of in and out of combat utility...more then I can list"

Divination-"Cause knowing is half the battle". G.I.Joe

Arburation-"Ya know how people keep calling wizard uber-powerfull? This is the school that lets them be uber-powerfull and not die by a pointy stick"

and lastly Evocation-"I blow you to itty bitty pieces, then blast those, just like the fighter could have'

[ericgrau]

well... levels 1 through 4 there is absolutely nothing that does direct damage that is worth casting... not when things like web, glitterdust, or grease can insta win a battle, while nothing will die from a direct damage spell you cast at this level.
level 5 you get fireball for 5d5... so, people, what are some of the better uses fo a level 3 spell instead of fireball? (I know they are there, I am looking for specific suggestions)

During that ever so brief and situational window, haste is better than a 5d6 fireball against 1 or 2 targets. But, ya, fireball rocks in most encounters, because hitting multiple baddies adds up to a crazy amount of damage. When it doesn't, you switch spells or just switch energy types and save the fireball for the next encounter when it will work. Nothing says you can't take haste and fireball and sleet storm (or w/e mix at different spell levels).

The orb spells are lauded in char op and despised in DM discussions. They are broken not for their damage output, which is actually a little worse and only hits 1 target, but because they are no save, no SR and conjuration instead of evocation. Oh, and WotC says they were experimenting with added effects to damage spells for 4e. Ya, I never heard about that last part until I heard it from WotC staff; everyone else is too fixated on the other stuff. Thanks for breaking the system for your experiment.

[sadi]

It's a matter of which spells people can't live without. Read the batman thread if you haven't, but the general idea is if you're a wizard, your job is to make the meatshields kill stuff easier, thats their job. Doing a little damage for a 1st level spell, or incapacitating something so the guys who carry big pointy objects can kill it.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002

[sonofzeal]

I've noticed some comments for wizards/sorcs banning evocation for becoming specailized, may I ask why?

What schools provide better Direct damage spells? And more importantly, which spells are superior to classics like "Fireball" and "Lightning Bolt"??

thanks!

As pretty much the only guy who defends Evocation on a regular basis....

...the reason to ban it is because it mostly fills the damage/BC roll that Conjuration does a whole lot better. If you have Conjuration, you don't really need Evocation, and Conj is one of the two most popular and least-commonly dropped schools. It's not so much that Evoc is bad, so much as Conj is better.

[jiriku]

As pretty much the only guy who defends Evocation on a regular basis....

...the reason to ban it is because it mostly fills the damage/BC roll that Conjuration does a whole lot better. If you have Conjuration, you don't really need Evocation, and Conj is one of the two most popular and least-commonly dropped schools. It's not so much that Evoc is bad, so much as Conj is better.

Agreed. Evocation has got some hoss spells like ball lightning, defenestrating sphere, contingency and lightning ring. And don't forget extract water elemental...oh wait, that's another conjuration spell...sigh.

[Dixieboy]

Evocation has some other useful spells, mainly "Force" types.

But if you really have to let one go evocation is the one that hurts the least.

[Soras Teva Gee]

But if you really have to let one go evocation enchantment is the one that hurts the least.

Fixed that for you there. Because Enchantment is easy to defend against and there's otherwise plenty of save-or-whatever going around. Evocation's problem is just that it isn't (or isn't perceived to be) as good as people think it should.

(Lesser case with Illusion too.)

[PhoenixRivers]

In a party, Haste typically provides better damage than fireball/lightning bolt.

Conjuration can take up damage slack, with orbs.

Offensively, Slow, Hold Person, Wall of X, and the like are awesome.

Solid Fog and the like.

They don't kill... But Ray of enfeeblement hinders an opponent's ability to hurt you. If an enemy has 100 hp and you do 30 damage, it's able to hit back just as hard.

But if it has 100 hp, and you slow it, or damage its strength, it is less of a threat. It is less able to harm the group.

That lets others kill it easily, and everyone, cooperating, wins the fight.

[taltamir]

In a party, Haste typically provides better damage than fireball/lightning bolt.

and, as a bonus, gives a +4 ac and better speed to move about (aka, more control)
And you can use it on yourself to run away in a pinch

[Myrmex]

"Roll a fortitude save or die" and "roll a will save or be turned into a helpless creature" to start with.

Easily circumvented with a blanket +3 or +4 to all saves, and a blanket +3 or +4 to touch attacks. I've had a lot of DMs do that. You then get about the same efficacy out of your SoDs as you would have out of blasting, which means encounters last more than one round.

[taltamir]

Easily circumvented with a blanket +3 or +4 to all saves, and a blanket +3 or +4 to touch attacks. I've had a lot of DMs do that. You then get about the same efficacy out of your SoDs as you would have out of blasting, which means encounters last more than one round.

then you use spells that win the battle without requiring a save (which are not damage dealers). It is not that SoD spells are overpowered, its that damage spells are underpowered compared to almost any other type of spell in existence. Either you systematically nerf them all, or you buff up direct damage.

[Myrmex]

then you use spells that win the battle without requiring a save (which are not damage dealers). It is not that SoD spells are overpowered, its that damage spells are underpowered compared to almost any other type of spell in existence. Either you systematically nerf them all, or you buff up direct damage.

Care to name any?
The best approach to this is a) suck it up & blast (rewards the guy who wants to play glass cannon) b) buff the team (probably the best way to play wizard) c) use battlefield control spells and rely on your teammates to tear the enemy a new one.

The GOD wizard relies largely on b & c, which, while quite powerful, aren't exceedingly so in most games I've actually played in. They feel far more like team players, filling in whatever gaps the rest of the party is missing. Batman was supposed to do b &, though with heavy reliance on SoDs.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

and, as a bonus, gives a +4 ac and better speed to move about (aka, more control)
And you can use it on yourself to run away in a pinch

Haste does not give +4 AC. It was +1 last time I checked.

[Kylarra]

Haste does not give +4 AC. It was +1 last time I checked.

He's thinking 3.0 haste.

[taltamir]

Care to name any?
The best approach to this is a) suck it up & blast (rewards the guy who wants to play glass cannon) b) buff the team (probably the best way to play wizard) c) use battlefield control spells and rely on your teammates to tear the enemy a new one.

The GOD wizard relies largely on b & c, which, while quite powerful, aren't exceedingly so in most games I've actually played in. They feel far more like team players, filling in whatever gaps the rest of the party is missing. Batman was supposed to do b &, though with heavy reliance on SoDs.

not save or die... save or lose... and many are just lose without any save.

[PhoenixRivers]

and, as a bonus, gives a +4 ac and better speed to move about (aka, more control)
And you can use it on yourself to run away in a pinch

+1 AC, however, it's better than that.

1 target per level. At level 5, when you get it, you can pretty much hit up your whole party with it.

So the rogue moves faster, and hits more accurately, the fighter charges farther and hits better (and more often), the cleric can position better, and you can also.

It gives you control and offense.

[jiriku]

I will add, though, that for NPC wizards, especially when encountered as part of a mixed group of enemies, direct damage is GREAT. Fog and walls and such will inconvenience players or annoy them, but taking damage, especially in great big chunks, SCARES THEM. Plus, it is totally hilarious to watch players go into freak-out mode when they're being pelted with damage spells from greater-invisible wizards and no one in the party prepped a means of detecting invisible creatures.

For my NPC evokers, I would tend to ban necromancy and transmutation, precisely because the save-or-die spells are terrible for use against players. As the DM, the last thing I want is to create a situation where either: a) the PC saves and the monster just wasted its action, or b) the PC dies, the player loses a cherished character because of one unlucky die roll, and the player now has to sit the game out for the next few hours until he receives resurrection or can create and introduce a new character.

[PhoenixRivers]

I will add, though, that for NPC wizards, especially when encountered as part of a mixed group of enemies, direct damage is GREAT. Fog and walls and such will inconvenience players or annoy them, but taking damage, especially in great big chunks, SCARES THEM. Plus, it is totally hilarious to watch players go into freak-out mode when they're being pelted with damage spells from greater-invisible wizards and no one in the party prepped a means of detecting invisible creatures.

For my NPC evokers, I would tend to ban necromancy and transmutation, precisely because the save-or-die spells are terrible for use against players. As the DM, the last thing I want is to create a situation where either: a) the PC saves and the monster just wasted its action, or b) the PC dies, the player loses a cherished character because of one unlucky die roll, and the player now has to sit the game out for the next few hours until he receives resurrection or can create and introduce a new character.

Oh, you can scare them with status spells too. My players are terrified of hold person, dominate, and obscuring mist.

Why? Because when you can't see your friends, bad things happen.

[Mordokai]

He's thinking 3.0 haste.

A neat spell, by any description. Extra attack is nothing to scoff at as well

[Cyclocone]

What schools provide better Direct damage spells?
thanks!

Conjuration and Abjuration both do blasting way better, and Necromancy isn't bad either, though thats not to say Evocation is bad at it. It still gets stuff like Radiant Assault, DB Fireball (only because of Time Stop) and Wings of Flurry (which, amusingly, isn't on the wyzzards list).
I don't get peoples weird fascination with disintegrate though, it's a thoroughly crappy spell that's only ever good for utility.

And more importantly, which spells are superior to classics like "Fireball" and "Lightning Bolt"??

Almost everything. Blastan has sucked ever since 3e came out.
Now it's linear blasting, quadratic HP, unless you go full-on Incantatrix/Halruaan Elder Metamagic cheese-fest.[/old man rant]

[Killer Angel]

He's thinking 3.0 haste.

Which was really broken, giving an additional standard action (AKA 2 spell / round, without counting the quicken feat).

On the subject, sometimes (IMO) can be a bad idea banning evocation, but it's very situational: example: if your pc evolve from low levels, when you became 11°, it's very annoying to wait 4 other levels to learn greater shadow evocation to duplicate the useful Contingency... 'specially if is not available Craft contingency spell.