Temporary Ability Modifiers And Pre-reqs

[Delandel]

My character has a +1 brutal surge greatsword (MIC). With brutal surge I can spend a swift action to initiate a bull rush after a successful attack equal to 1 + my CON mod every day. My question is, let's say I temporarily boost my CON mod (via magic items or spells), can I use brutal surge's ability more often or is it base ability mod only?

And just to double check since I can't find the ruling in the PHB, can you qualify for a feat that requires a certain ability score (ex. combat expertise) with a temp ability score (via magic items)?

[Tyndmyr]

Yes. However, like all prereqs, if you lose the prereqs, you lose the benefit of whatever depends on them.

Quite nice for getting into things earlier, that you will later have the prereqs for innately...riskier if losing your magic item denies you access to your prestige class benefits or feat chain.

[Korivan]

Yes. However, like all prereqs, if you lose the prereqs, you lose the benefit of whatever depends on them.

Quite nice for getting into things earlier, that you will later have the prereqs for innately...riskier if losing your magic item denies you access to your prestige class benefits or feat chain.

As far as we know, thats the rules. We've never had this come up.

Heres a similar question, if you use something that boots your intelligence, and level up, do you get to keep the skill points you assigned from the INT boost?

[Tyndmyr]

That's an excellent question. I would say yes, since skill points are not retroactively affected by intelligence.

Obviously, the reverse is true of hit points.

Of course, I know of no explicit ruling on this, but that's how it appears to work by RAW.

[Dhavaer]

Heres a similar question, if you use something that boots your intelligence, and level up, do you get to keep the skill points you assigned from the INT boost?

Temporary Intelligence boosts don't increase your skill points.

[Douglas]

Temporary Intelligence boosts don't increase your skill points.

Technically I don't think there's any explicit rule to that effect, it's just that the by far most common temporary intelligence boosts explicitly specify that they don't grant skill points. Specifically, Fox's Cunning and the Headband of Intellect both specifically mention that fact.

[Tyndmyr]

You don't gain skill points for having an int boost, true.

However, if you level while one is active(ie, you are an incantatrix), would you not gain skill points based on your current, boosted int level?

And skill points are not affected by later changes...getting a +2 int later on won't give you retroactive skill points, so getting an int reduction should not remove them.

Of course, if there is an explicit rule stating otherwise, that would override this.

[Curmudgeon]

Technically I don't think there's any explicit rule to that effect

The explicit rule is at the end of page 58 of the Player's Handbook:

Your character’s Intelligence modifier affects the number of skill points he or she gets at each level (see Table 1–1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells, page 8). This rule represents an intelligent character’s ability to learn faster over time. Use your character’s current Intelligence score, including all permanent changes (such as inherent bonuses, ability drains, or an Intelligence increase gained at step 4, above) but not any temporary changes (such as ability damage, or enhancement bonuses gained from spells or magic items, such as a headband of intellect), to determine the number of skill points you gain.

[Tyndmyr]

So, whats the difference between a temporary modifer and a permanent one.

Rather...whats the difference between a temporary modifier that you always have, and a permanent one?

[Kylarra]

So, whats the difference between a temporary modifer and a permanent one.

Rather...whats the difference between a temporary modifier that you always have, and a permanent one?

One's a hat you can pass around at levelup, and the other isn't?

[Tyndmyr]

I guess what I'm asking is, what defines which an effect falls under...is any limitation on duration enough to make it temporary? Plenty of bonuses are labeled as permanent explicitly, but not all increases are specifically labeled as permanent or temporary.

Logic would tend to indicate that anything that expires is likely temporary, but logic isn't raw...and anyhow, it gets fuzzier when it's a temporary buff that will be persisted over and over until your character dies.

What happens if you can permanency an int buff(I can't think of a legit means for this atm, but Im away from books, and it might be possible), and it later gets dispelled?

[Kylarra]

I guess what I'm asking is, what defines which an effect falls under...is any limitation on duration enough to make it temporary? Plenty of bonuses are labeled as permanent explicitly, but not all increases are specifically labeled as permanent or temporary.

Logic would tend to indicate that anything that expires is likely temporary, but logic isn't raw...and anyhow, it gets fuzzier when it's a temporary buff that will be persisted over and over until your character dies.

What happens if you can permanency an int buff(I can't think of a legit means for this atm, but Im away from books, and it might be possible), and it later gets dispelled?

Given that a magic item is listed there, I'd assume it's "a permanent effect you would still have even in an AMF and doesn't rely on possession of an item" or somesuch. So bonuses granted via spells, yes even that permancied homebrew int booster you got passed when the DM was drunk, magic items, or similar effects won't count.

It seems pretty straightforward to me, and should work unless you're actively trying to break the system, and honestly there're better ways to do it than trying to cheese skillpoints.

[Stegyre]

One's a hat you can pass around at levelup, and the other isn't?

+1 You made me laugh.

@Tyndmyr: wishes (and similar ultra-powerful spells and certain magic items) are able to give a permanent modifier to an attribute. (IRC, these permanent mods are capped at +5, but that may just be the maximum increase one can obtain by wishing.) Modifiers gained in other ways, such as a headband of intellect, gloves of dexterity, etc., are temporary, even if you wear them for a very, very, very long time.

[Tyndmyr]

But...something permanencied counts as permanent with respect to you, per the spell text. (Oddly enough, we happen to use very lenient house rules with respect to permanency, at least for self-only buffs. Thus, thanks to owl's wisdom, this actually matters for me. To matter by raw though, there'd have to be some int buff somewhere that says it can be permanent)

Thus, you could technically have an enhancement bonus from a spell that is explicitly permanent, falling into both categories.

[Kylarra]

But...something permanencied counts as permanent with respect to you, per the spell text. (Oddly enough, we happen to use very lenient house rules with respect to permanency, at least for self-only buffs. Thus, thanks to owl's wisdom, this actually matters for me. To matter by raw though, there'd have to be some int buff somewhere that says it can be permanent)

Thus, you could technically have an enhancement bonus from a spell that is explicitly permanent, falling into both categories.

Except that Permanency has a very explicit list of what it can make permanent, and stat boosters aren't on that list (yes a few other spells not in core also say they can be made permanent through the spell, but again, no stat boosters). So yes, in theory you could houserule such things in, but per RAW, such things won't normally happen, so they don't need to be addressed (in RAW). Note that my qualifier of "working in an AMF still would be relevant as they would be suppressed and thus not a viable candidate for "permanent boosts", should you choose to accept my descriptor anyway.

Thus, it comes down to your DM's decision on how the backlash of their first houserule affects things here.

[Tyndmyr]

No stat boosters at all, hmm? Thats no fun.

[Kylarra]

No stat boosters at all, hmm? Thats no fun.

Considering you'd be either replicating a consecutively cast ninth level spell effect or be paying exp up the wazoo to keep them up each time you get buff dispelled... yeah, not much room for a middle ground there.

[Tyndmyr]

Depends how often they get dispelled...Of course, enough permanencied buffs, and you kinda start tempting the DM at some point...

[Kylarra]

Depends how often they get dispelled...Of course, enough permanencied buffs, and you kinda start tempting the DM at some point...

you're pretty much just asking for it at that point, especially considering the probable cost redux.