[3.5] Is it just me, or is the Dragon Disciple a joke?

[Myou]

It doesn't progress casting in any meaningful way, it gives you stupid abilitites like claws, a tiny amount of natural armour, extra int for a cha-based caster, and the ability to fly, badly. Oh, and you can do, what, 6d8 damage once a day with your breath weapon? At about level 12 or somewhere around there.

And the ultimate ability, is to give you the half-dragon template.

Why not just play a half dragon?! x_x

Am I missing some great ability? Or is the class only good for metabreath abuse?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

It is only good for a rather specific kind of gish.

[lsfreak]

You didn't miss anything. It's a horrible PrC pretty much all round except in rare instances, like as a cap in Keld's Suel Arcanamach (sp?) gish build just for the extra spells known.

[KellKheraptis]

It doesn't progress casting in any meaningful way, it gives you stupid abilitites like claws, a tiny amount of natural armour, extra int for a cha-based caster, and the ability to fly, badly. Oh, and you can do, what, 6d8 damage once a day with your breath weapon? At about level 12 or somewhere around there.

And the ultimate ability, is to give you the half-dragon template.

Why not just play a half dragon?! x_x

Am I missing some great ability? Or is the class only good for metabreath abuse?

Dragon Disciple and Half-Dragon both are kind of a hose. Either waste 10 levels to gimp yourself, or waste three effective levels to gimp yourself, in a way that won't progress anything! Damned if you do, damned if you don't :P Oh wait...why be half when we have polymorph tech! That's my chosen solution, that or go Dragonborn.

[Faleldir]

Of course it's a joke. If you're a Half-Dragon, you can't be a Dragon Disciple, so you lose your class features, including the Half-Dragon subtype, which makes you qualify for the class again and become a Half-Dragon again...

[Korivan]

You didn't miss anything. It's a horrible PrC pretty much all round except in rare instances, like as a cap in Keld's Suel Arcanamach (sp?) gish build just for the extra spells known.

And yet not the WORST arcane PrC. Thats reserved for the Green Star Adept. But Ya, DD doesn't meet the "good" PrC's for mages. No caster progression, focus on physical combat not spell combat, and as already mentioned, its abilities are mediocre.

[Myou]

It is only good for a rather specific kind of gish.

Ah, yes, the famed glass peashooter.

You didn't miss anything. It's a horrible PrC pretty much all round except in rare instances, like as a cap in Keld's Suel Arcanamach (sp?) gish build just for the extra spells known.

Hmmm, might I see this build? The name rings a bell.

Dragon Disciple and Half-Dragon both are kind of a hose. Either waste 10 levels to gimp yourself, or waste three effective levels to gimp yourself, in a way that won't progress anything! Damned if you do, damned if you don't :P Oh wait...why be half when we have polymorph tech! That's my chosen solution, that or go Dragonborn.

Well, the way I see it, you can optimise a gimped half-dragon sorcerer to make him playable at higherl levels, especially if you abuse a few PrCs, but a Dragon Disciple? You can't even take those PrCs, because it costs you ten whole levels! Ten!

Of course it's a joke. If you're a Half-Dragon, you can't be a Dragon Disciple, so you lose your class features, including the Half-Dragon subtype, which makes you qualify for the class again and become a Half-Dragon again...

Which is why you live under a constant greater invisibility and mind blank, because the instant anyone sees you, poof, 50% chance you just lost ten levels.

And yet not the WORST arcane PrC. Thats reserved for the Green Star Adept. But Ya, DD doesn't meet the "good" PrC's for mages. No caster progression, focus on physical combat not spell combat, and as already mentioned, its abilities are mediocre.

Hey now, no swearing, the Green **** ***** is just some guys on drugs thinking how cool it would be if wizards overdosed on cocaine laced with dye, then making a PrC of it.

[Johel]

Fluff wise :
A half-dragon is the son of a dragon and... something. It looks draconic since its birth and has immediate access to his powers. He probably was an orphan or at least had one of his parents disappear.

A Dragon Disciple has draconic ancestors but that can be as far as 10 generations away. Hence the fact it takes 10 levels to become half-dragon, as the power of their blood slowly awaken as they use arcane magic. Except that, they are perfectly normal members of their species.

[Steward]

I think it would be a great prestige class. For example, if your DM lets you to switch out the DD levels for druid levels, you can increase your spellcasting and your saves much better. You also gain access to cool new abilities like Wildshape and if you take natural spell feat you can cast while in the body of a powerful elephant or bear! It's the perfect class. Dragon Disciple, that is.

[SoD]

Fluff wise :
A half-dragon is the son of a dragon and... something. It looks draconic since its birth and has immediate access to his powers. He probably was an orphan or at least had one of his parents disappear.

A half-dragon can also have both parents as dragons. There's nothing in the rules which prevents you from making a half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon. Or even a half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon.

[EnnPeeCee]

Don't think of it as a caster PrC. Think of it as a fighter-type PrC with really weird prerequisites. It really beefs up strength based characters. Probably not "optimal" still, but 90% of the content in d&d isn't. Its just another option available to build with.

[Korivan]

Actually as memory recalls, there was one really sweet ability the DD had. An ability that surpassed all others. One that shook the very foundations of the gaming community. In Neverwinter Nights 1, you could get red dragon wings for your character!!!!!

Sadly, when I tried to do this in NWN2 it didn't give me wings. So I never played on in NWN2 more then once.

[Akal Saris]

I think it would be a great prestige class. For example, if your DM lets you to switch out the DD levels for druid levels, you can increase your spellcasting and your saves much better. You also gain access to cool new abilities like Wildshape and if you take natural spell feat you can cast while in the body of a powerful elephant or bear! It's the perfect class. Dragon Disciple, that is.

That's a great idea! Maybe the dragon disciple's innate draconic charisma will be so high, he can even have an animal companion to follow him around! It's too bad there's no base classes as awesome as dragon disciple =(

[Eldariel]

Dragon Disciple is better than Half-Dragon 'cause it doesn't have Level Adjustment and because you don't have to take all the levels. It has three uses:

1) Core melee PrC with one-two level Sorc-dip. You lose some BAB, but get Str increases to compensate, which means slightly more damage at the same To Hit and better Trips. Because bonus feats suck in Core, it's actually superior to e.g. multiclassing into Fighter and as such, has its own niché there. Note, never take 10 levels; 4 is ideal though 7-8 can be consideration-worthy. Enlarge Person is far better than the bonuses you gain on level 10 of the PrC.

2) Epic PrC to gain extra 10th+ level spell slots easily. Yeah, it's niché and kinda bad even there, but much better than any of the pre-epic uses.

3) Take a Suel Arcanamach who finishes his casting advancement in 10 levels. This leaves you with spontaneous casting and some left-over levels where you can use Dragon Disciple for extra slots and some stat bonuses.


For example, Barbarian 14/Sorcerer 2/Dragon Disciple 4 is probably the best tripper (at tripping; e.g. Horizon Tripper is obviously much more versatile) you can make in Core with consistent Rage, +10 Str over normal when Raging, 18/20 BAB and access to True Strike & Enlarge Person on his own power. He'll also have a superb Will-save for a core melee type between Rage-bonuses, two good progressions and Indomitable Mind.

Out-of-core it doesn't hold water, but in Core the numbers are decent. Indeed, Orc Barbarian/Dragon Disciple can reach Str 50 by level 20 in Core (18 PB + 4 Race + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 item + 6 Rage + 4 Dragon Disciple + 2 Enlarge). Of course, he'll still only be Large so what he can trip is limited to Huge (but he can trip basically anything Huge with little effort), and the stat requirements of 11 Cha and 13 Int are harsh, which is why I'd rather go Human/Dwarf most of the time.


EDIT: But yeah, make no mistake, it's a pretty horrible class.

[Myou]

Don't think of it as a caster PrC. Think of it as a fighter-type PrC with really weird prerequisites. It really beefs up strength based characters. Probably not "optimal" still, but 90% of the content in d&d isn't. Its just another option available to build with.

So, it's a fighter PrC that's weaker than multiclassing to Barbarian.

[Johel]

A half-dragon can also have both parents as dragons. There's nothing in the rules which prevents you from making a half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon. Or even a half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon.

Nickpicking but correct.

[Omegonthesane]

You could use this casting class instead. In fact, it even gives better BaB than a real sorcerer.

[Jack_Simth]

You could use this casting class instead. In fact, it even gives better BaB than a real sorcerer.

...

In what sense is that prestige class not just an upgraded Sorcerer? It's not focusing; if you ignore familiar advancement, it's a strictly strengthened version of the sorcerer, costing a single feat for entry.

The regular Dragon Disciple does do fairly reasonably in a medium-powered gestalt, though, for a Gish build.

[Elfin]

It's without doubt a terrible class...awesome fluff, though.

[Tyndmyr]

And yet not the WORST arcane PrC. Thats reserved for the Green Star Adept. But Ya, DD doesn't meet the "good" PrC's for mages. No caster progression, focus on physical combat not spell combat, and as already mentioned, its abilities are mediocre.

Yeah...I read through that class like three times, trying to figure out what I was missing. I really just don't see why anyone would ever take it.

Same goes for dragon disciple, of course.

[Myou]

You could use this casting class instead. In fact, it even gives better BaB than a real sorcerer.

Given that it's homebrew, it's not an option that many DMs would allow.

...

In what sense is that prestige class not just an upgraded Sorcerer? It's not focusing; if you ignore familiar advancement, it's a strictly strengthened version of the sorcerer, costing a single feat for entry.

The regular Dragon Disciple does do fairly reasonably in a medium-powered gestalt, though, for a Gish build.

But it doesn't even get a familiar or the ability to specialise!

[taltamir]

A half-dragon can also have both parents as dragons. There's nothing in the rules which prevents you from making a half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon. Or even a half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon.

that is wrong on so many levels T.T

[The Dark Fiddler]

Dragon Disciple is there... fluff-wise. But spending 10 levels on a template and a few extra spells? Pass. There's got to be a better way to do it, and this is one of the few anythings I'd LOVE to see "fixed". And I'm not even a heavy optimizer. (The extent I go to is basically Rogue should be Dex instead of Str because Dex adds to AC).

[deuxhero]

Given that it's homebrew, it's not an option that many DMs would allow.

A quick look and I don't really see anything that useful for a caster except for the spell like ability (that is a tad over powered, gold's is a 9th level spell obtainable by the time you have 4th levels). If the SLA was converted to automaticly knowing the spell (it is a sorc class, Wizard entry seems like an after thought) the next most powerful ability is a couple of bonus feats from a very narrow (less than a dozen IIRC) pool.

[Kurald Galain]

I tried really hard making a gish with DD once, and turned out I was better off without DD in any case. I think I ended up at Eldritch Knight, which is much better. So yeah, DD is t3h sukk.

[Kallisti]

Dragon disciple is a joke. And a poor one. The fluff is...all right, I suppose, although I've never been enamored of it, but the class itself is so underpowered I can't believe Wizards didn't catch that in a playtest and buff it up.

[BenTheJester]

A half-dragon can also have both parents as dragons. There's nothing in the rules which prevents you from making a half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon. Or even a half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon.

Except you can't add a template more than once.

[Jergmo]

Dragon disciple is a joke. And a poor one. The fluff is...all right, I suppose, although I've never been enamored of it, but the class itself is so underpowered I can't believe Wizards didn't catch that in a playtest and buff it up.

I think it's fairly well known Wizards hasn't done so hot to balance a wide variety of monsters and races.

[Eldariel]

Dragon disciple is a joke. And a poor one. The fluff is...all right, I suppose, although I've never been enamored of it, but the class itself is so underpowered I can't believe Wizards didn't catch that in a playtest and buff it up.

It's about in line with Core-melee 'cause Core melee feats beyond Trip, Reflexes & PA suck...which makes Fighter-levels grant diminishing returns and Barbarian has always had quite a poor scaling; thanks to this, Dragon Disciple doesn't really lose much since neither of the aforementioned classes does much good anyways.

But yeah...you'd think a class requiring casting to enter would do something with said casting. It's Arcane Archer all over again. As it stands, the class is almost purely a melee class that requires a pointless caster dip. One great thing about the class does exist though: It gives you a natural Bite-attack giving you a nice extra source of damage on full attacks.

[Lamech]

Wait can you get extra 10th level spell slots with it? And by tenth I mean extra epic level spell slots with it...