Dry Lich questions

[Choco]

I'm considering making a Walker in the Waste character, but before I do I got 2 issues I gotta work out:

1. The rules for regular liches specify that they can can create new phylacteries when their old/current ones are destroyed, but does that work the same for dry liches? They got the 5 jars containing their organs basically serving as 5 phylacteries, and I know the jars themselves can be replaced, but I can't imagine they can just "craft" themselves some new organs to place into said jars. Would a wish/miracle be the only way to get their phylacteries back?

2. Is there any way to get around that pesky water weakness? I thought about a Ring of Elemental Immunity, but then I realized that the ice immunity one specifically protects against ice, not water.

[hamishspence]

The rules don't actually specify in 3.5 MM whether they can or can't replace destroyed phylacteries.

In Libris Mortis, it states explicitly that they cannot- page 151:

"A lich whose phylactery is destroyed suffers no harm, but cannot construct a new one."

[Sinfire Titan]

Dust of Dryness takes care of the weakness to water. There's also an item in the MiC that keeps you dry for a few minutes/hours or so. I believe it was a rod.

[FlyingWhale]

I am assuming you are a player in this... Possibly going through some sort of ritual where you find a willing person to sacrifice their organ(whichever was broken) and make a new one with it? I don't know offhand what you could sway your DM with for a mechanical effect... Maybe an ability penalty because it's not YOUR organ anymore?

Maybe you should dunk yourself in oils to waterproof yourself Grease spells, Races of the Wild-Honey Leather-pg129... I dunno. But yeah I could see a few things there... Good luck, keep us updated!

[Choco]

Ah, my bad about the phylactery, I think that was a house rule since no one has Libris Mortis. But even considering that, a wish/miracle should still be able to bring the original one back, but it appears that is the only option.

I will have to check out that dust of dryness, and also try to get that swarm template (I don't know how/if the DM will go about having me acquire a 0LA template). Since as an undead I wouldnt have to breathe/eat anyway, maybe I can laminate myself.... Im sure there are plenty of other mundane ways to keep that nasty water offa me, just a matter of creativity now I guess!

Ah well, now I got a new question though: What would be the best ways to shield my jars from divinations?

[Sliver]

Mind blank them! Can you animate your organ so it counts as a creature, and then mind blank it?

[Sinfire Titan]

Ah well, now I got a new question though: What would be the best ways to shield my jars from divinations?

If you have Complete Mage and Dungeonscape available, get someone to craft a self-resetting trap of Otiluke's Suppressing Field pre-set to Divination. Permanent anti-Scry.

[Khatoblepas]

On each jar:
Dispel Magic
Polymorph Any Object * 2 into a nubile young princess, then again into a nubile young princess. (Can be any race, or even a Warforged. Since you're polymorphing, you might as well choose an immortal race like Killoren.)
Mindrape: Good Alignment, memories of being brought up by your alter ego, a kindly king figure.
Cast: Contingency - if girl should ever go below 0 hit points, cast Heal on them. If you can spare another, have Word of Recall/Greater Teleport also cast.
Give: Item of Mind Blank, Glamered Bootknives of Spellblade [Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic]. Conspicuous Magical Amulets of Light [CL = Your Phylacteries]
Take: Good care of them. Teach them magic. Make "clones" and keep their bodies safe. You never know when you need body doubles. (like when adventurers know too much and try to kill your "daughters")

As far as I know, the dispel magic will wear off after you cast PaO twice, leaving the resulting girl functionally a magic item AND a creature. After all, one doesn't permanently destroy the magic of a magic item with a 3rd and 8th level spell - that requires a 9th level spell, or a large adamantine hammer.

Now you have five wonderful daughters, to teach magic and generally turn into wonderful people that noone will want to kill. Sure, they have no souls, but they have memories, and a good alignment. If they want to kill you, they have to kill, for example... the betrothed to Prince Al-Hazbar, the adventurer's soon to be king. He won't like that at all. And why would you want to kill the Princess' father? What has he ever done to you? Evil adventurers would be rooted out and slain as if they were assassins, if you play your cards right.

In all, a moral quandry for PCs, a reason for DMs not to go after your phylacteries. Nobody has to know the Five Princesses of the Desert Kingdom are actually just clay jars...

edit: Oh, and about the water weakness. Glamered Hydration Suit (should cost around 1000gp for the suit and +2000 for glamered.)

[hamishspence]

Polymorph any object is normally temporary if the object is not very close in nature to what it will be turned into.

Basically, you'd need to start with Magic Jars that are made from human bodies, first.

Otherwise, after a short period they will revert back into the original Magic Jar forms.

[Sinfire Titan]

Polymorph any object is normally temporary if the object is not very close in nature to what it will be turned into.

Basically, you'd need to start with Magic Jars that are made from human bodies, first.

Otherwise, after a short period they will revert back into the original Magic Jar forms.

Did you not read his post? He's double-casting it, making the second casting permanent. Duration won't change when the other casting wears off.

[mostlyharmful]

Polymorph any object is normally temporary if the object is not very close in nature to what it will be turned into.

Basically, you'd need to start with Magic Jars that are made from human bodies, first.

Otherwise, after a short period they will revert back into the original Magic Jar forms.

but it also temporarily changes your type. Which means a second casting of it's a lot lot closer, permenant alteration is just two castings away for anything into anything. Then you have them have lots of kids... who the hell knows if they'd work for you as phylacteries but it would mess up any adventurers coming after you no end.

[hamishspence]

I was figuring that the rule is absolute- double casting does not work-

(they would not have such a time limitation factor if it could be beaten just by casting the spell twice)

[Sinfire Titan]

I was figuring that the rule is absolute- double casting does not work-

(they would not have such a time limitation factor if it could be beaten just by casting the spell twice)

Where is this rule coming from? RAW, it works. There's no such thing as State-Based Effects in DnD.

[hamishspence]

Yes, but RAW also allows a dying person to be brought back up to 0 HP by sticking their head in a bucket of water.

Its just one of a long line of things where sometimes to avoid cheese, you have to consider Rules As Intended.

And given that the whole polymorph line has a reputation for being cheesy as heck, it hardly needs to be made more so by allowing double cast to enable you to turn anything into anything, permanently.

[mostlyharmful]

Yes, but RAW also allows a dying person to be brought back up to 0 HP by sticking their head in a bucket of water.

Its just one of a long line of things where sometimes to avoid cheese, you have to consider Rules As Intended.

And given that the whole polymorph line has a reputation for being cheesy as heck, it hardly needs to be made more so by allowing double cast to enable you to turn anything into anything, permanently.

this one though is clearly a leeeeettttlllleeee tongue in cheek.
and rule -1 is this is all about having fun trumps even RAI

[Sinfire Titan]

Yes, but RAW also allows a dying person to be brought back up to 0 HP by sticking their head in a bucket of water.

Its just one of a long line of things where sometimes to avoid cheese, you have to consider Rules As Intended.

And given that the whole polymorph line has a reputation for being cheesy as heck, it hardly needs to be made more so by allowing double cast to enable you to turn anything into anything, permanently.

The thing is, this would technically fall under the Stacking rules, but the stacking rules don't apply to spell durations or Polymorph effects that well. It isn't a case of "The rules don't say I can't", it's an actual interaction between the abilities in which the rule the effects would normally fall under doesn't have a say in the matter. It then becomes Rule Zero territory, in which case the DM is house ruling the effects.

BTW, RAW the bucket thing is completely irrelevant. RAW, a Dead creature can take actions, as the Dying status is the only thing that prevents them from taking actions at all. The Dying status applies only from -1 to -9, at which point Dead takes over and the negative effects on your actions disappear.

How's that for bad editing?

[The_Snark]

While I would normally avoid anything involving Polymorph Any Object cheese (plus Mindrape, no less), the idea of an ancient undead king turning the clay jars that sustain his life into five beautiful princesses is cool enough that I'd permit it this once. It'd actually make for a better campaign villain than a PC...

[Optimystik]

this one though is clearly a leeeeettttlllleeee tongue in cheek.
and rule -1 is this is all about having fun trumps even RAI

At the point where your PCs can turn anything into anything else without limitation, you might as well start handing out candles of invocation and rubberstamping their epic spells. I'm with hamish on this one.

[mostlyharmful]

At the point where your PCs can turn anything into anything else without limitation, you might as well start handing out candles of invocation and rubberstamping their epic spells. I'm with hamish on this one.

The difference being that this one's funny and imaginative, candles and Mythals are just dumb.

[Choco]

Wow, now THAT is an awesome plan! I'm gonna have to find a high level wizard and give that a shot, but with only 4 of the jars. I would still make 5 princesses, but only 4 outta the jars. The last jar I would cast that Otiluke's Suppressing Field self-resetting thing on and hide on some demi-plane or something, buried under 3 miles of rock. Course the only problem is that being a divine caster, I can't polymorph any object or mindrape. That leaves me to use scrolls or other magic items, since paying a high level wizard to do it is out of the question (no way in hell am I gonna have a wizard capable of casting 9th level spells running around knowing about mah darn jars daughters!). That may leave a trail that could be divined, but I got time to think of a plan... Also with the jars as princesses, I may even get some help getting them miracle'd back to life should they die. I'm sure the DM would even allow the polymorph cheese in this once occasion cause it's such a kickass idea.

[taltamir]

question, is there any way that ANYONE, even a GOD could enter a demiplane uninvited? because if so, putting your jars in demiplanes seems the best solution...

As for the double casting... I would say it cannot work or you give PCs a license to break everything... but... you could use epic casting... but that is also completely broken.

As a DM, you could make something custom to do that instead, it is safer...

But you realize that this is so unoriginal even HARRY POTTER did it? (harry potter is voldermorts 7th phylancy)

[Foryn Gilnith]

But you realize that this is so unoriginal even HARRY POTTER did it? (harry potter is voldermorts 7th phylancy)

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoulJar doesn't list too many examples of people-as-phylacteries. Its existence in a popular-yet-bad novel in no way implies unoriginality.

[Choco]

Yeah I know about that, and there is even some Lich cheese where you get a group of like 4+ liches and they make eachother their phylacteries.

Thing is, with a Dry Lich, people would normally be looking for organ jars. A regular lich can use bout everything as a phylactery, but a Dry Lich just has jars containing his organs.

Oh snap, that leads to another question for y'all, any way I can trick Divination spells into either a) thinking the 5th princess is actually also a phylactery or b) thinking some 5 jars with random peoples organs in them are my phylacteries?

[taltamir]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoulJar doesn't list too many examples of people-as-phylacteries. Its existence in a popular-yet-bad novel in no way implies unoriginality.

true, but harry potter is known for not being original... like halo.
It takes a bunch of things that have been done before and mashes them together...

While highly unoriginal, I wouldn't call it a BAD novel... its not a masterpiece but its not bad either.

PS. what about using a stepwise process though? say... animate + awaken.. etc.

Yeah I know about that, and there is even some Lich cheese where you get a group of like 4+ liches and they make eachother their phylacteries.

Thing is, with a Dry Lich, people would normally be looking for organ jars. A regular lich can use bout everything as a phylactery, but a Dry Lich just has jars containing his organs.

Oh snap, that leads to another question for y'all, any way I can trick Divination spells into either a) thinking the 5th princess is actually also a phylactery or b) thinking some 5 jars with random peoples organs in them are my phylacteries?

now that is a way cool idea... actually, i am thinking.. some of the rules about putting a dimentional object in another (bags of holding and the like), or destroying them, say that they contents are "lost forever"... not DESTROYED... this could be an interesting way to hide your phylactery..

As for misguiding scrying... I can only think of epic spells doing it, but there is probably some regular spell method i am not thinking about.

[Choco]

now that is a way cool idea... actually, i am thinking.. some of the rules about putting a dimentional object in another (bags of holding and the like), or destroying them, say that they contents are "lost forever"... not DESTROYED... this could be an interesting way to hide your phylactery..

Oddly enough I thought about that too, but then either someone could divine/capture it, or even I wouldnt be able to find it again, and im sure my DM would pull the "<x> thing from the Far Realm drifted past where your phylactery was "lost" and destroyed it" card or something.

Also, when a lich "reforms" itself, does it do so from out of the (or one of the...) phylactery? It would be inconvenient for me to reform myself and be lost forever too

[Rainbownaga]

Also, when a lich "reforms" itself, does it do so from out of the (or one of the...) phylactery? It would be inconvenient for me to reform myself and be lost forever too

Oooh, that could be nasty if you went with the daughter ides

[taltamir]

Oooh, that could be nasty if you went with the daughter ides

well... you don't form AROUND the phylactery. and you don't form IN it, you form NEAR it...
Although a virgin princess set to marry his highness suddenly giving birth to a lich would be... bad. yea.

[Drakyn]

well... you don't form AROUND the phylactery. and you don't form IN it, you form NEAR it...
Although a virgin princess set to marry his highness suddenly giving birth to a lich would be... bad. yea.

Babies are wrinkly anyways as newborns. Who'll notice the difference?

[Choco]

Babies are wrinkly anyways as newborns. Who'll notice the difference?

Heh, babies also have eyes and are more than just skin-wrapped bones, but being D&D I'm sure most ppl wouldnt be surprised...

I guess if I could choose which one to reform near, I would pick the one on the demiplane (which would be all kinds of warded against divinations) or if that werent an option then just near one of the daughters would be fine, I could play it off as being a senile old lich who just messed up a teleport and promptly leave...

I wonder, the rules dont specify, but do you just kinda pop back into existence, or do you form piece by piece like in OOTS?

[Rainbownaga]

An alternative campaign idea would be to just PAo into minature necklace versions, and then plant false leads that it was the daughters themselves rather than their jewelry that was causing it. It would get around the PAO exploitation and be really when they find out they killed the women for no reason.

It shouldn't be too hard for a lich to do the doppelganger trick on a man that already has beautiful daughters.