[3.5] Any non-class level ways to get Mettle?

[Master_Rahl22]

So, are there any items/feats/whatever-that-isn't-class-levels that you guys know of to gain Mettle? For those who may not know, Mettle is like Evasion for Fort and Will, so anything that duplicates that effect even if it's not called Mettle will be fine. Heck, even something that duplicates Evasion for only Will saves would work.

[Sinfire Titan]

Yet again, I spout my Elder Evils line. Insane Defiance is the closest you will get to Mettle for Will without levels in another class. Immediate action to shunt a Mind-affecting spell targeting you to another target. The new target takes a -4 to the Will save at your option.


Dominate Person? Enjoy controlling yourself, mister Wizard.

[Person_Man]

Tabard of Valor: When reduced to 50% hit points or less, you gain Mettle. If you already have Mettle, you gain Improved Mettle (which works just like Improved Evasion, but for Will and Fort Saves). Complete Champion pg 142.

Also, I've found that Mettle isn't really worth it. I played as a strait Hexblade for a while, and it was used maybe once during the entire campaign.

[PhoenixRivers]

It's quite useful in PvP, however, where people use powers that suck when you pass.

[Master_Rahl22]

Insane Defiance would be absolutely awesome if I could qualify for it. This is for a level 13 charater with poor Will progression, so it's at +4 right now.

[Sinfire Titan]

Insane Defiance would be absolutely awesome if I could qualify for it. This is for a level 13 charater with poor Will progression, so it's at +4 right now.

Then Deformity: Madness. At your level, you will get 3 bonus feats, and two of them can go towards that one. Not very effective, but a PsiReform later on will help.

[Paulus]

Then Deformity: Madness. At your level, you will get 3 bonus feats, and two of them can go towards that one. Not very effective, but a PsiReform later on will help.

Mad? We're all mad here! And we have so many feats!

[PId6]

Also, I've found that Mettle isn't really worth it. I played as a strait Hexblade for a while, and it was used maybe once during the entire campaign.

I'd love Mettle for spells like Avasculate or Maw of Chaos. Deadly spells that used to get stunning/dazing as a bonus now completely fail on a successful save.

[PhoenixRivers]

I'd love Mettle for spells like Avasculate or Maw of Chaos. Deadly spells that used to get stunning/dazing as a bonus now completely fail on a successful save.

Actually, it doesn't do much to Maw of Chaos. The will save only happens when you take damage. It can't negate damage that's already happened.

[PId6]

Actually, it doesn't do much to Maw of Chaos. The will save only happens when you take damage. It can't negate damage that's already happened.

Hmm, that's a shame. However, Mettle gives as example "any spell with a saving throws entry of Will half or Fortitude half," so there's room for argument. But Maw of Chaos's wording is a bit of a pain though.

[BobVosh]

In all honesty just ask if you can get a ring of mettle at same cost of evasion. Its about half as good for the same cost.

[Myou]

In all honesty just ask if you can get a ring of mettle at same cost of evasion. Its about half as good for the same cost.

Mettle is worse than evasion?

[Curmudgeon]

Mettle is worse than evasion?

Yeah, I don't buy that either. Mettle applies to two saves, whereas Evasion applies to only one.

[Myou]

Yeah, I don't buy that either. Mettle applies to two saves, whereas Evasion applies to only one.

And Mettle applies to save that actually matter.

Like actual save-or-dies.

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, I don't buy that either. Mettle applies to two saves, whereas Evasion applies to only one.

Yes, but it also doesn't apply to all that many spells.

Seriously; name, oh, five Core spells to which Mettle applies. Then name five Core spells to which Evasion applies. Which naming is easier?

And Mettle applies to save that actually matter.

Like actual save-or-dies.

However:
For Mettle to apply, you have to have passed the save. And most of the Save or Lose spells? They're Will/Fort negates effects - which means Mettle has no effect.

[Myou]

Yes, but it also doesn't apply to all that many spells.

Seriously; name, oh, five Core spells to which Mettle applies. Then name five Core spells to which Evasion applies. Which naming is easier?

Which is more dangerous? A Fireball or a Cloudkill?

[lsfreak]

Slightly off-topic, would Mettle still apply to spells like Glitterdust or Avasculate? They both have a save-partial, but there's still something that happens no matter what; at first glance I'd view it as two effects (one always happens, one allows a save) and not "save for a lesser effect."

[Curmudgeon]

Slightly off-topic, would Mettle still apply to spells like Glitterdust or Avasculate? They both have a save-partial, but there's still something that happens no matter what; at first glance I'd view it as two effects (one always happens, one allows a save) and not "save for a lesser effect."

It depends on the particular variety of Mettle, but generally it saves you from all effects of the spell.

If a pious templar makes a successful Will or Fortitude saving throw that would normally reduce the spell’s effect, she suffers no effect from the spell at all. Only those spells with a Saving Throw entry of “Will partial,” “Fortitude half,” or similar entries can be negated through this ability.

Saving Throw: Fortitude partial

If the attack succeeds, the subject is reduced to half of its current hit points (rounded down) and stunned for 1 round. On a successful Fortitude saving throw, the subject is not stunned.

So the Fortitude save reduces Avasculate's effect, and thus Mettle makes that spell have no effect on a successful save. There is no requirement that the save reduce the hit point damage or any other characteristic of a spell -- only that the save reduce the spell's effect. Not being stunned is a reduction in effect.

[SoD]

Interesting thing; Sunburst. On a succesful reflex save, you don't get evasion. Because it's not reflex half, it's reflex partial.

On a failed save, you take full damage and are blind. On a succesful save, you take half damage, and are not blind. But because it's not reflex half...

[Keld Denar]

Ah, but there are several different printings of Mettle...

From Hexblades, as printed in Complete Warrior.

Mettle (Ex): At 3rd level and higher, a hexblade can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping hexblade does not gain the benefit of mettle.

So, a Pious Templer gets screwed over by an Avasculate, but a Hexblade looks looks none too disturbed. One could extrapolate from this that it includes ALL fort partial, will partial, fort half, and will half effects, or one could just demand a player's character to have both forms of mettle to be absolved from the fickle pen of the authors. I'm inclined to agree that ALL half or partial effects from both fort and will is the intent of mettle, but barring actual dev input (yea right...) thats what it says...

Funny, eh?

[Curmudgeon]

Interesting thing; Sunburst. On a succesful reflex save, you don't get evasion. Because it's not reflex half, it's reflex partial.

It doesn't need to be marked "Reflex half"; it just needs to be half damage on a Reflex save.

Evasion (Ex)

At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage.

Saving Throw: Reflex partial; see text

A successful Reflex save negates the blindness and reduces the damage by half.

[Ernir]

Also, I've found that Mettle isn't really worth it. I played as a strait Hexblade for a while, and it was used maybe once during the entire campaign.

The one time I have encountered a Hexblade, Mettle triggered and nearly ruined my day.
It was playing hide-and-seek, had a hide modifier no one in the party could beat, and the one time I got to Glitterdust it the damn thing just shrugged it off.

[herrhauptmann]

Mettle is very good in certain games.
Like if the DM regularly throws out monsters with SLA's that are save AND suck/ save or lose. Such as the Blood Fiend I think it was. (undead demon, DR 15 or 20/good)

WHichever it was, they had dominate monster (at least twice per day, because my dwarf got targeted 5 times by 4 of them), level drain. Some other SLA that was supposed to make a person be sickened, even on a successful fort save (DC low 30s).

[Curmudgeon]

I'm inclined to agree that ALL half or partial effects from both fort and will is the intent of mettle, but barring actual dev input (yea right...) thats what it says...

If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect.

If a pious templar makes a successful Will or Fortitude saving throw that would normally reduce the spell’s effect, she suffers no effect from the spell at all. Only those spells with a Saving Throw entry of “Will partial,” “Fortitude half,” or similar entries can be negated through this ability.

Your "inclination" is actually just the simplest way to read the rules. The first part of both versions of Mettle specifies the saves (Will and Fortitude) and the types (anything with lesser effect); the part that follows just gives examples of those. No developer input is required.

[Aharon]

Well, the 4th level Utterance Confounding Resistance (ToM, p. 238) gives you mettle.
On page 262, it is stated that you can put Utterances in spell trigger items, but that they have to target a specific truename.
So, you could get it for 42000 GP - 6000 for researching your truename, 30000 for a Wand of Confounding Resistance, 6000 for a Minor Schema of Metamagic Item (Persist). That's probably not worth it, though...

[Jack_Simth]

Which is more dangerous? A Fireball or a Cloudkill?

Depends on circumstances. Cloudkill is a 5th level spell. If you had your Heroes' Feast that morning (a 6th level spell), it's negated. If you're in a reasonably open area, the Cloudkill will keep going, and you're really only going to need to deal with it for a round or two - in which case (at 6+ HD), that 1/2 of 1d4 Con damage once or twice won't amount to much (remember: For either Evasion or Mettle to apply, you have to beat the save), although it takes a relatively specialty spell to fix up. If you've got 10 hit dice, 2d4/2 averages 2.5 points of lost con; about ten points of effective damage (could potentially go as high as 20).

A Fireball hitting you, however, deals an average of 35 damage at similar levels. Reflex Half means that 35 drops down to 17.5 points of damage (and it could potentially go as high as 30 on a successful save).

If it's an Empowered Fireball (after all, you're trying to compare a 5th level spell to a 3rd level spell, which isn't exactly fair...) the Fireball averages roughly 52.5 base damage, which goes down to roughly 26.25 on a successful normal save (and that could get as high as 45).

Try again, please.

[Cieyrin]

Depends on circumstances. Cloudkill is a 5th level spell. If you had your Heroes' Feast that morning (a 6th level spell), it's negated. If you're in a reasonably open area, the Cloudkill will keep going, and you're really only going to need to deal with it for a round or two - in which case (at 6+ HD), that 1/2 of 1d4 Con damage once or twice won't amount to much (remember: For either Evasion or Mettle to apply, you have to beat the save), although it takes a relatively specialty spell to fix up. If you've got 10 hit dice, 2d4/2 averages 2.5 points of lost con; about ten points of effective damage (could potentially go as high as 20).

A Fireball hitting you, however, deals an average of 35 damage at similar levels. Reflex Half means that 35 drops down to 17.5 points of damage (and it could potentially go as high as 30 on a successful save).

If it's an Empowered Fireball (after all, you're trying to compare a 5th level spell to a 3rd level spell, which isn't exactly fair...) the Fireball averages roughly 52.5 base damage, which goes down to roughly 26.25 on a successful normal save (and that could get as high as 45).

Try again, please.

Yeah but that reduced Con has other effects as well, such as a reduced Fort save which could be critical later in that same combat. For immediate bang for your buck, I agree, the empowered fireball comes out on top, but the reduced Con means other effects (greater vulnerability to other Fort saves, as well as greater chance of death from further Con damage) hurts more in the long run.

[FMArthur]

I really don't believe Cloudkill is nearly as good as so many seem to believe. It's one of the few so-called "must have" spells that I have never seen used to significant gain. Maybe if you were a villain intent on slaying scores of <6HD creatures it would come in handy, but that is not typically the circumstance a party above 9th level will be facing. 1-2 Con damage/round in a wide area could probably be useful if it didn't move. It's better than not casting something, but not by a whole lot and not better than certain other 4th-5th level options.

[ericgrau]

Yeah but that reduced Con has other effects as well.

It's 1d4. Averages -1.25 HP /level and -1.25 to fort saves.

More importantly, few spells are fort(partial) or will(partial) and even then most of those are direct damage. Cloudkill is a rare exception and, as pointed out, not all that great most of the time. I like the idea to ask the DM for a custom item.

[PhoenixRivers]

Hmm, that's a shame. However, Mettle gives as example "any spell with a saving throws entry of Will half or Fortitude half," so there's room for argument. But Maw of Chaos's wording is a bit of a pain though.

Not much. If you don't take damage, you didn't make a will save. If you didn't make a will save, mettle doesn't apply.

Just as AMF can't negate an instantaneous duration effect that's already happened, Mettle can't negate a spell effect that's already occurred.

To elaborate further, say you're hit with Maw of Chaos.

Round 1: Take 17d6 damage and make a will save. (you fail)
Effect: You're dazed.

Round 2: Take 17d6 damage and make a will save. (you pass)

Does it negate the damage you took in round 1? No. Because you can't prevent an effect that's already happened.

Just as you don't negate the round 2 damage. Because at the time you make the save, the damage is over and done with.

Now, there is an argument for being immune to round 3 and onward.