[3.5] Ranged Fighter VS Dual Wielding fighter.

[Dixieboy]

I was never really good with doing the math for such things; so I present you, the playground, with a question:

Which is better* a Ranged fighter or a dual wielding one**, and does it vary depending on level?

Assuming standard WBL, elite array, single class, human, and no access to a spellcaster which is better at level 1, 5, 10, 20?

Optmizing is obviously key, but I'd prefer as little cheese and brokenness as possible. (I can't really see any of it using the criteria I have specificed but you'll think of something)


* I primarily refer to Damage, if you can make a strong case for surviveability go for it though.
** Melee weapons, I'm not sure if you can dual wield ranged weapons or thrown, but that's not what I'm looking for.

[Eloel]

You can dual-wield crossbows, fyi.

Do you count thrown weapons (or, say, Eldritch Blast), as ranged fighter thingies?

[Dixieboy]

I'd prefer "projectile weapons" but thrown weapons will make do.

How will you get eldritch blast as a single class fighter?

[Saph]

It's hard to answer because it depends on what you'll be fighting against. It's not all about the DPS.

Ranged weapons typically do less damage than melee ones. The two big advantages you get in exchange are not having to go toe to toe with enemy melee monsters, and not having to move to full attack.

If you fight weak to moderately powerful enemies that typically run straight into combat and stand next to you trading full attacks, then the TWFer will do better.

If you typically fight highly mobile enemies, or huge lethal monsters that are far too deadly to stand next to, then the archer will come out ahead.

[Dixieboy]

I could add another clause "Does it vary depending on number of targets?".

Though it'll offcourse vary depending on abilities of enemies, an "Overall image" will suffice.

Oh, and as for if one strong opponent is needed.
Assume the other one.
Ranged Vs Dual wielder.
Dual wielder Vs Ranged.

[Tavar]

Well, PvP is a rather poor judge of power, but in that case I'd say the Ranged character has the advantage. He can still get off some decent shots while moving, as opposed to the TWF, who must get full attacks to really use his abilities.

[Saph]

I could add another clause "Does it vary depending on number of targets?"

Yes. An archer does better against multiple targets, because he can take out one and switch to the next all in the same full attack. A TWFer has to full attack one, then move to the next target, then full attack that. (Unless the enemies are obliging enough to surround him, but don't count on that.)

[Eldariel]

If you can enable moving while getting full attacks (such as through the Barbarian ACF from Complete Champion or Travel Devotion), TWF obviously gets much better. Really, much depends on how much you've got to work with. TWF suffers of having huge Dexterity requirements in the feats meaning while you could theoretically go Str-focus as a TWFer, you probably should go Dex-focus if possible.

And naturally you deal more damage in melee than in range; what would be the point of melee if you could deal the same damage without risking counterattack? Though interestingly, after level 2 (when you can afford Composite Bows) until level 6 archery is actually ahead thanks to Rapid Shot provided you have about equal Dex & Str (which is usually the case for TWFers and Archers anyways).


Eh, quick chart for comparison.


Two-Weapon Fighting:
+ Gets more attacks eventually
+ Can derive both, To Hit and damage off Str, or with splatbooks off Dex
+ Can be used with Power Attack, albeit inefficiently almost always
- Requires a lot of Dex to pick the Two-Weapon Fighting feats so you'll end up needing lots of Dex even if using Str for To Hit & Damage
- Melee attacks, getting full attacks can be difficult
- Two weapons to enhance; gets expensive
- Costs a lot of feats just to gain the basics, including inherently horrible feats like Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (extra attack at -10 for a feat?)
- To get most of Fighter's ways of boosting the damage, you need to use two identical weapons either forcing an extra feat on Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting or using two Light Weapons

Archery:
+ Generally has bigger base damage dice
+ Only one weapon to enhance, and arrows can be enhanced separately for rather small prices to get effectively double the enhancement on attacks
+ You can practically always full attack
- You will always need Dex for To Hit and Str for damage; there's no printed way around this
- You need the rather weak Point Blank Shot to get Rapid Shot, and Precise Shot is nearly must too if you focus on archery
- The base bow is expensive at start since you want a Composite Bow and it can cash in the 1000s.


So yeah, both benefit greatly of huge Str & Dex, but TWF can get by with minimal Str given access to Shadow Blade. Archery practically always wants huge numbers in both. Archery will more consistently be punching in the full attack worth of damage, while TWF will be dealing more damage, at least after the second iterative kicks in.

And a good bow will be harder to afford early on, while you'll have difficulty afford enhancements for two weapons on higher levels. TWF will probably end up eating more feats unless you go with just the bare bones TWF.

[babson99]

If you're looking for something easier to build, go with archer. A mighty bow plus some basic feats and you're good to go. Any opponent that you can see coming from a distance will eat a half-dozen arrows before it can close for melee, and the other party members will appreciate your softening it up.

A two-weapon fighter is viable, but requires some work. Since you'll need light weapons, you won't get the oomph that you should from a high strength. The most effective builds I've seen incorporate several rogue levels so that you can deal out sneak attack damage with two weapons whenever you've won initiative or while flanking. A two-level dip into ranger may also help save feats. But your survivability will be compromised by these dips (lower hit dice and BAB), the sneak attack damage will be worthless against undead, and you'll need to spend money on defensive items because you'll be in melee with low hit dice and no shield. (You could take Improved Shield Bash and fight with a weapon in one hand and a spiked shield in the other; let me know how it works out.)

In short, an archer is easier to build and play. But with some work, a 12th level TWF character can do 15-20d6 sneak attack damage plus weapon damage each round, or knock off several Con points with a wounding weapon. If you're willing to wait for such opportunities, then go for it.

[IthilanorStPete]

Or a TWF could go Disciple of Dispater + Lightning Mace + Aptitude weapons, but that's admittedly pretty cheese.

[Eloel]

A Monk/Master Thrower can throw ALOT of shurikens every round with Flurry, TWF, Rapid Shot & Palm Throw. Find a way to enchant shurikens cheap in bundles (stuff like Flaming), and you're dealing a nice amount of damage due to the number of shurikens.

[Cieyrin]

- You will always need Dex for To Hit and Str for damage; there's no printed way around this

Not true. Crossbow Sniper lets you be full Dex (not that you can apply Strength to a crossbow, anyways). Pick up a light crossbow and Rapid Reload for it and you can pull of the same tricks as a traditional archer.

If you wanted to go the thrown weapon route, you could go full Strength by using Brutal Throw to cover accuracy and damage.

If you want to stay strictly bow, then yes, there isn't a way around Dex to hit and Str to damage but saying there isn't a way to be a single stat archer is fallacious.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

EDIT:

A Monk/Master Thrower can throw ALOT of shurikens every round with Flurry, TWF, Rapid Shot & Palm Throw. Find a way to enchant shurikens cheap in bundles (stuff like Flaming), and you're dealing a nice amount of damage due to the number of shurikens.

The only problem with that is it gets expensive, since you have to replace your expended shuriken, since they're treated as ammunition and so have a good chance of being broke/lost. You don't have a bow to enchant instead to apply its effects to the ammo, so you got enchant 'em individually. Sure, you get the ammo price break for enchantment but you still have to Magic Mart it up to keep up with people who aren't expending their weapons so frequently or expensively. It's unfortunate and wish it wasn't so but them's the facts.

[Eldariel]

Not true. Crossbow Sniper lets you be full Dex (not that you can apply Strength to a crossbow, anyways). Pick up a light crossbow and Rapid Reload for it and you can pull of the same tricks as a traditional archer.

Yeah, I was merely addressing standard long bows; Crossbows, thrown weapons, Soulbows and such all deserve their own listing as there are vast differences between the bunch.

[Godskook]

- You will always need Dex for To Hit and Str for damage; there's no printed way around this

Doesn't help the MAD, but Zen Archery does exist, and helps for non-fighter archers because there's potential to key other things of wisdom too(Monk's Belt for the AC bonus, will saves, spot, cleric archer(nuff said), and if the 'standards' of GitP homebrew are allowed, a Swordsage of the Falling Star has great wisdom synergy(Thanks to Fax))

[RagnaroksChosen]

As far as MAD of archers. Especialy fighter archers

Dex to dmg:
There's dead eye from Dragon compendium.
Champ of corralion from races of wild .
Alternate class feature from dragon
Alternate class feature from drow of the underdark (only when flat footed though)


So there are ways to get dex to dmg I'm a big fan of the Deadeye though after errata.

[Eldariel]

As far as MAD of archers. Especialy fighter archers

Issues in order:

Dex to dmg:
There's dead eye from Dragon compendium.[/quote]

Dragon Compendium version only works within 30' and is precision damage, making it much the same as having some Sneak Attack. Not very useful for the primary use of bows: dealing damage well at range.

Champ of corralion from races of wild .

Champion of Corellon Larethian - it only works with few melee weapons. It's also precision damage so even if it worked, it wouldn't be amazing. But it cannot be used with bows at all; only Scimitars, Longswords, Rapiers, etc.

Alternate class feature from dragon

Targetteer does work, but it replaces Str to damage (the wording is a bit wonky) and acts as precision. Still, the best there is. If only Dragon wasn't such an obscure source...

Alternate class feature from drow of the underdark (only when flat footed though)

It only works within 30'. But yeah, Hit'n'Run Fighter is incredible if allowed. By RAW, anyone should be able to take it, but as they're listed as "Drow Options", many DMs might not allow non-Drow characters to take 'em.


But my point is that nothing allows a blanket "get Dex to damage instead of Str"; all of 'em have attached "buts" and "ifs" and only work in a subset of circumstances requiring a good Str anyways, and most of them are from extremely obscure sources; Dragon Magazine has the only two with any level usability.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Issues in order:

Dex to dmg:
There's dead eye from Dragon compendium.

Dragon Compendium version only works within 30' and is precision damage, making it much the same as having some Sneak Attack. Not very useful for the primary use of bows: dealing damage well at range.
[/QUOTE]

I can't remember arn't there ways to increase the range of percision dmg?

[Eldariel]

I can't remember arn't there ways to increase the range of percision dmg?

Crossbow Sniper & some specific feats, but even 60' just isn't all that much. And Crossbow Sniper is hard to use with bows But yeah, Dead Eye is handy on short ranges.

[Eloel]

The only problem with that is it gets expensive, since you have to replace your expended shuriken, since they're treated as ammunition and so have a good chance of being broke/lost. You don't have a bow to enchant instead to apply its effects to the ammo, so you got enchant 'em individually. Sure, you get the ammo price break for enchantment but you still have to Magic Mart it up to keep up with people who aren't expending their weapons so frequently or expensively. It's unfortunate and wish it wasn't so but them's the facts.

If you can get the DM to agree that Energy Weapon can be cast on 50 ammos just like a single weapon (and I see no reason it shouldn't be), it's good enough.

[Eldariel]

If you can get the DM to agree that Energy Weapon can be cast on 50 ammos just like a single weapon (and I see no reason it shouldn't be), it's good enough.

Flame Arrow is useful as it works like this by default. Hours/level on level 3.

[ericgrau]

The bow does more damage right off the bat because you only have 1 weapon to enchant, don't need to focus as much on defense, and you can add special arrows like bane or made of a certain metal on top of that, as the situation requires. But TWF does better when you add special bonuses to each hit since you get more attacks: bonus damage, trips, spell storing weapons, etc. So TWF for pros and bow for new players. Though things like special arrows and sniping (see both hide and spot rules) also gives pros good options. And as said range has a strategic advantage. Take a look at the combat modifiers table for a ranged character to best use the terrain.

[9mm]

Most work on the subject actually places the Archery Fighter as the fighter's best option in terms of damage, even ahead of the ubercharger approach.

[Eldariel]

Most work on the subject actually places the Archery Fighter as the fighter's best option in terms of damage, even ahead of the ubercharger approach.

This involves doublecharging the arrows, using Splitting, and it might've had Energy Bow too. Splitting is the big one though; it vastly increases archery damage to the point of being busted.

Also, if talking about the records, I'm pretty use The Übercharger still has Archery builds beat simply on the extra multipliers archery cannot replicate. I don't think I've even seen archery outside Splitting Aptitude Lightning Mace nonsense even cross 10000 average damage on 20 (though Splitting Aptitude Lightning Maces may very well be the most damaging basic build; it involves crossbows, not bows though).

[sofawall]

Splitting Lightning Crossbow recently pulled off 44k or so, at level 13. It is clearly the best in terms of archery.

However, last I checked, 44k does not require exponential notation, and the ubercharger does.

[Eldariel]

Splitting Lightning Crossbow recently pulled off 44k or so, at level 13. It is clearly the best in terms of archery.

However, last I checked, 44k does not require exponential notation, and the ubercharger does.

That was a level 13 build though. I think extra crit multipliers exist to enable further chaining. But yeah, crossbows are crossbows and the stupid aptitude nonsense is the stupid aptitude nonsense (which works for TWFers too).

[ericgrau]

I think the difference between fission nuclear bombs and fusion nuclear bombs is just splitting hairs. Sure, one might be 10 times stronger than the other, but when you've atomized your opponent it doesn't matter either way. When you've atomized 5 opponents OTOH archery gets an advantage. Except I couldn't see a DM allowing either. Why does theoretical char op keep sneaking into these threads? By all means continue, though it'd be nice to distinguish what's theoretical.

Oh, and my avatar and sig linsk are gone because geocities is gone. Time to find a file server web site. Someone told me one but I forgot the name. Hmm.

[Korivan]

It all depends on the situation, and weapon enhancements, stats, etc.

General rule of thumb, its always a good thing to keep a good distance on your enemy. And theres a version of Power Attack that works for ranged weapons. Add a burst enchantment you can really drop a group before they are within range of thier pointy swords.

On the flip side. Dealing absurb amounts of damage is good too. Even 50% STR bonus for one weapon isn't bad if you can boost weapon damage. If the DM allows it, you can go with a crit build and grab the enervating enchantment. With a boost to your number of attacks you can potentially give them half a dozen or more negative levels in 1-2 rounds.

Though, depends on how high level, why not focus on both. Human Fighter can get enough feats to be good at both.

[SinsI]

There's also an age-old hit-and-run tactic for the Ranged Fighter - with sufficiently slow terrain ranger can kill any arbitrary amount of pursuing melee enemies (if he has some way of getting infinite arrows).

[RagnaroksChosen]

There's also an age-old hit-and-run tactic for the Ranged Fighter - with sufficiently slow terrain ranger can kill any arbitrary amount of pursuing melee enemies (if he has some way of getting infinite arrows).

there is ... its called hanks bow.

[Darcand]

I believe it is worth mention that each comp bow attack receives the full damage bonus, off hands and light weapons do not.