[4E] Skill Challenges - How does your group handle them?

[Aron Times]

My group plays using a combination of PBEM and MapTool. Most of the action takes place on Friday evenings, when we play on MapTool, while we use the rest of the week for behind-the-scenes roleplaying and other stuff through PBEM.

Tonight, the party's mission is to liberate a Clockwork concentration camp without getting detected. The plan is to sneak into the camp, kill the guards, and use Linked Portal to bring the prisoners to safety.

The reason why we have to be sneaky is because if we encounter and kill a Clockwork officer on the way to the camp, it might have a Final Messenger which will then fly off to alert Clockwork forces in the area. The concentration camp may still have someone with a Final Messenger installed, but even if it gets away, it will still take some time for it to get to the closest Clockwork officer and for the Clockwork forces to get to the camp. By then, we would've finished casting Linked Portal and gotten everyone to safety.

Oh, a bit of background information first. The Clockwork Kingdom is made up of constructs (the Clockworks, basically Warforged) and their oppressed organic subjects. Clockworks are powered by souls, specifically, souls stolen from their prisoners. The prisoners in the concentration camp are going to be killed and their final rest denied by having their souls used to power new Clockworks.

1. Thievery - The warlock sets traps to annoy and distract patrol guards. They won't fall for this a second time, but it at least grants a success.

2. Arcana - My character analyzes the ley lines running through town, and figures out how to cut off the power so we can slip in further into Clockwork territory.

3. Perception - The paladin analyzes the guard patrol patterns, allowing us to slip in undetected.

4. History - The wizard learns that the Clockworks are using goblinoid mercenaries to capture prisoners to power new Clockworks. These are the Red Talons, a group the party has dealt with before my character joined the party.

5. Arcana - The wizard searches and finds the Clockworks' surveillance sensors, allowing us to move under the radar.

6. Nature - The ranger keeps us from getting lost while traveling.

7. Insight - The cleric figures out how not to look suspicious and avoid Clockwork loyalists while traveling.

8. Bluff - The warlock fast-talks his way through some guards.

That's a total of eight successes, and we managed to get to the camp without getting seen.

So, how does your group handle skill challenges?

[Thajocoth]

I let the party complete skill challenges however they want. 4 failures and they lose. I count their successes and failures as we go. If they succeed, I take the total successes, subtract their failures, divide by 2, and give them that many standard monsters of their level of XP.

[Kurald Galain]

So, how does your group handle skill challenges?

We consider the rules both fundamentally broken and an unnecessary kludge, and avoid them at all costs.

[KIDS]

I've had some issues with the default Skill Challenge rules, even though I like the concept. The way you did it is great, I just don't believe that the default rules lend themselves well to that kind of fluidity. I usually use a slight modification: Obsidian Skill Challenge System.

[Aron Times]

I'm guessing you don't use errata? My DM does skill challenges by the book, with errata, that is. Skill challenges basically involve picking a skill, figuring out how to justify it, and roleplaying it. I don't see what the problem is.

[Kurald Galain]

Skill challenges basically involve picking a skill, figuring out how to justify it, and roleplaying it. I don't see what the problem is.

A reported problem in RPGA games is that the most effective way to play a skill challenge is to always pick your best skill, and justify it in whatever the situation is using twisted (or spurious) logic. Essentially, the only relevant skill in a skill challenge then becomes "fast talking the DM".

This isn't as ridiculous as it sounds: justifying why arcana, history or religion is relevant to swimming across a lake isn't any stranger than what many character powers do. Since DMs (tend to) allow the latter they have no real reason to disallow the former.

[Saph]

We don't. Skill Challenges are an utterly awful piece of game design. They're clunky, dull, and an attempt to fit a square peg in a round hole (trying to make out-of-combat activities work in the same basic way as a combat encounter).

Our players roll skills whenever they seem appropriate, and the DM gives results based on the situation - basically, the same way that every other system handles out-of-combat skills. It works a hundred times better.

[TheEmerged]

I'm guessing you don't use errata? My DM does skill challenges by the book, with errata, that is. Skill challenges basically involve picking a skill, figuring out how to justify it, and roleplaying it. I don't see what the problem is.

Mine is similar to this, except I ask the player what they're doing and have them roll against the most appropriate skill. I'm toying with adding a bonus success if the DC is exceeded by more than 5, but haven't done this in play yet.

[Tiki Snakes]

A reported problem in RPGA games is that the most effective way to play a skill challenge is to always pick your best skill, and justify it in whatever the situation is using twisted (or spurious) logic. Essentially, the only relevant skill in a skill challenge then becomes "fast talking the DM".

This isn't as ridiculous as it sounds: justifying why arcana, history or religion is relevant to swimming across a lake isn't any stranger than what many character powers do. Since DMs (tend to) allow the latter they have no real reason to disallow the former.

Okay, you've peaked my interest.

How does History, Arcana or religion aid in swimming across a lake? :D

[taltamir]

if the skills are written so badly that they DO overlap, then why shouldn't you use the ones you are best at? it can also be different solutions to the same problem. there is more then one way to skin a baby seal.

[Arbitrarity]

Religion helps you think of a mantra which lets you keep focused while swimming.
History lets you remember effective swimming styles of previous heroes, and inspire yourself with recollection of how other heroes easily swam greater obstacles.
Arcana lets you use cantrips to help propel yourself by shoving water?

[Fishy]

History: In some famous historical battle, the enemy general brought his reinforcements in across a lake, using his secret infantry-lake-crossing technique that was then recorded in the Art of War.

Arcana: Use the knowledge gained from your exhaustive studies of the Elemental Planes to identify potential rip-currents, eddies and vortexes before they happen.

Religion: Just walk across it. It's a miracle!

[oxinabox]

We consider the rules both fundamentally broken and an unnecessary kludge, and avoid them at all costs.

Can I sig that?

I just call skill checks as required.
Single skill checks...

[Aron Times]

Okay, your problem is not so much a flaw inherent to skill challenges but an overly permissive DM. I'm a very permissive RPGA DM, and I wouldn't allow those in my games (RPGA or not).

The key here is that if a task can be accomplished with a skill check or three, it isn't a skill challenge. A skill challenge is a much more complicated task than that.

[taltamir]

Okay, your problem is not so much a flaw inherent to skill challenges but an overly permissive DM. I'm a very permissive RPGA DM, and I wouldn't allow those in my games (RPGA or not).

The key here is that if a task can be accomplished with a skill check or three, it isn't a skill challenge. A skill challenge is a much more complicated task than that.

whose problem? some have described an overly strict DM that declares one and only one skill to be useful for something, and other applicable skills not.
The few people who came up with "methods" to apply anything to everything were trying to make a point that you can make a far fetched and likely unacceptable arguments for anything... but not that any DM will accept those explanations.

[Dragonmuncher]

How does the errata change skill challenges?

If I recall correctly, a skill challenge is basically "Get X Successes before Y Failures," right? What did they change?

[BobVosh]

Okay, you've peaked my interest.

How does History, Arcana or religion aid in swimming across a lake? :D

History: Knowledge of a shallower place, with no tide
Arcana: I'm at a lost
Religion: Baptisms happen over here as it is the easiest place to wade through.


As far as skill challenges go: Neat idea, poor play. Almost every skill challenge you want the players to succeed or its basically over. Then you have to throw a hackneyed plot device to get it back rolling. We avoided them.

However there was occasionally a time to use them, and the OPs example is quite possibly the best example I have heard.

[Kurald Galain]

Can I sig that?

Sure, if you note in your sig that it's about skill challenges.

if the skills are written so badly that they DO overlap, then why shouldn't you use the ones you are best at?

There's no reason why you shouldn't. The problem is that once you do realize that every skill can be made to apply to every situation, all skills become pointless.

Okay, your problem is not so much a flaw inherent to skill challenges but an overly permissive DM.

Really? Can you give me a solid reason why the things Arbitrarity, Fishy, and BobVosh pointed out shouldn't work? None of them are sillier or more far-fetched than tripping an ooze, or sneak attacking a skeleton.

And that's even aside from all the instances I've seen where the DM points out that we've already solved the in-game task, but still need two more successes; or conversely, when we've not done anything much to solve the in-game task, but have enough successes so it goes away now. Both examples may be called bad DM'ing, but the point is that the SC rules encourage that.

[Telasi]

Badly. I swear, my players don't catch on when something isn't working, and stop when it does. They are new, so I've cut them a break so far, but still, it isn't good.

[Katana_Geldar]

It would probably work better if some of us had more than two points ot add to the roll of a skill, like today when we had to make a bunch of Nature checks and we all had terrible Wisdom scores.

But I started playing with SW, and rolling skill checks without the need of a challenge is rather new to me, given that a lot of players shouldn't need to be prompted to make several rolls in a row for the simple reason of a skill check.

Some of them are just self-explainitory.

[Tiki Snakes]

As far as skill challenges go: Neat idea, poor play. Almost every skill challenge you want the players to succeed or its basically over. Then you have to throw a hackneyed plot device to get it back rolling. We avoided them.

However there was occasionally a time to use them, and the OPs example is quite possibly the best example I have heard.

I was of the understanding, personally, that the official line is that you shouldn't ever really use them when success is 100% necessary to continue, but instead in branching scenarios where pass or fail, the adventure continues, merely in different directions or with differing degrees of difficulty afterwards.

Some good examples of how to use non swimming skills in a skill challenge, above. The arcana one/s are a bit far fetched, but history and even a religion made good sense there, actually, and I'd probably give them as a success in some kind of 'find a way to cross the river for the party' skill challenge.

They wouldn't really get you across on their own, of course, but finding shallows and so on would certainly either lower some DC's or grant good bonuses/etc to eventual athletics checks. Depends what else the party does/comes up with. If you figure out the shallowest part, and the athlete wades across with a rope, maybe you'd avoid having to roll at all, if I was feeling nice.

Likely I'd use such a challenge if it was a matter of attempting to pursue someone or something, because the difference between success and failure is basically how quickly you can get across the river. Perhaps the foe would get away, and instead the party would have to instead divine/figure out it's base, rather than aprehend them in the open, away from it's defences.

[Kurald Galain]

I was of the understanding, personally, that the official line is that you shouldn't ever really use them when success is 100% necessary to continue,

That is, however, generally what happens in many printed adventures, particularly those for RPGA. At worst, failing a skill challenge will cost you a healing surge or a surprise round; this further contributes to the pointlessness of the system.

[Tiki Snakes]

That is, however, generally what happens in many printed adventures, particularly those for RPGA. At worst, failing a skill challenge will cost you a healing surge or a surprise round; this further contributes to the pointlessness of the system.

If the way it's being used clashes with how it's intended to be used, doesn't that strike you as a problem with the modules etc rather than the system itself, as such?

[Mushroom Ninja]

We have some... trouble... with skill challenges from time to time. For example, in the premade adventure our DM is running, we needed to get 4 successes to find out where a nefarious weapons-dealer was. No more than 2 of these successes could come from one source. Because of this, after the second store-owner we diplomacied, nobody seemed to be willing to share any information of their own free will. This was in a city of about 60000 people.

[Kurald Galain]

If the way it's being used clashes with how it's intended to be used, doesn't that strike you as a problem with the modules etc rather than the system itself, as such?

If the most commonly played modules by the most prolific writers of the officially endorsed RPGA campaign can't even use SCs in a meaningful fashion, then that strikes me as a problem in the system.

[Tiki Snakes]

If the most commonly played modules by the most prolific writers of the officially endorsed RPGA campaign can't even use SCs in a meaningful fashion, then that strikes me as a problem in the system.

I was of the understanding the the RPGA modules tended to be a bit sucky? really, the system is not a roaring success, but a lot of the problems just strike me as it being used in ways it wasn't intended.

[Kurald Galain]

I was of the understanding the the RPGA modules tended to be a bit sucky?

They are, but one of the reasons they are sucky is that they are contractually obliged to use the actual skill challenge rules. Essentially, the RPGA uses skill challenges exactly as intended, and it fails. Hard.

[Indon]

Well, there'll be something you need to do, and then you use a skill to do it. If you make the skill check, you did that thing that required the skill. Otherwise, you failed to do that thing.

And, uh... it's challenging. I guess.

[Reverent-One]

Essentially, the RPGA uses skill challenges exactly as intended, and it fails. Hard.

Wait, didn't you just say a few posts up that the RPGA modules normally uses skill challenges in situations that are 100% necessary to pass for the adventure? Which is exactly how they are not supposed to be used?

[Kurald Galain]

Wait, didn't you just say a few posts up that the RPGA modules normally uses skill challenges in situations that are 100% necessary to pass for the adventure? Which is exactly how they are not supposed to be used?

Wouldn't be the first time that WOTC says two contradictory things, now would it?

(edit) Regardless, skill challenges don't become any better if you only use them for situations that are unnecessary to pass. They're still a mechanical kludge that encourages both poor DM'ing and poor roleplaying.