Ultimate Spellthief (3.5)

[JellyPooga]

I've been thinking about Gestalt a lot recently (there's been a few threads about it knocking around the past couple of days) and I got to thinking...a Spellthief//Ur Priest could be the makings of an "Ultimate Spellthief". However, my knowledge of spellcasting classes and options is limited (I much prefer characters that don't flake out after a couple of fights generally), so I don't really know what sort of options are available to enhance this kind of build...help me!

Now, this isn't a cheese-build...to get the best spell-thievery out of Ur-Priest I'd like to use the PrC to level 10 (rather than take another PrC to advance Ur Priest casting). Similarly, Spellthief will occupy one full side (all 20 levels) of the Gestalt to take best advantage of all the spell-thievery in that particular class.

So, the only real conditions are that in order to qualify for Ur-Priest there must be no Divine casting before taking that PrC...either than that, it's pretty much fair game. I was thinking that a Class that gave either better BAB/HD and/or full Sneak Attack progression would be good for levels 1-5 (before PrCs become available); the former to enhance his survivability and the latter becaues Spellthief doesn't have it, but relies on it for his main class feature.

Other than that, I'm in the dark...hit me with what you got!

[Glimbur]

You'll want a good base Fort save to get in to Ur Priest earlier, and Full BAB and good Hit Die are nice too. So I'd suggest an unholy amalgam of classes like Ranger1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Warblade 1/ etc... until you can get in to Ur Priest. Do this as a human, take Spellthief to 20 as you plan, and only take PrC's past level one on the other side and you can even dodge multiclassing penalties, in case you care.

[JellyPooga]

Hmm...I thought a couple of levels (well...5) of Hexblade might be good option; Full BAB, Good Will and Arcane Resistance...but to qualify for Ur Priest as quickly as possible (if that is, indeed what I wish to do) I need both good Will and Fort and ideally I'd need Knowledge:Religion and Knowledge:The Planes to be class skills...this would suggest Cleric, but that's not an option given that I can't have any Divine spellcasting before taking Ur Priest (at least, not if I don't want to waste the spellcasting gained from those levels).

In fact, short of taking Cleric (or Druid) at levels 1-5 and sacrificing the spellcasting, I can't think of any base class that will allow me to take Ur Priest at level 6. By taking Monk (urgh!) to level 7, I can just about qualify by taking Knowledge:The Planes as a cross class skill (even more urgh!). The alternative is to mix up some classes (as you say Glimbur), but even then I can't see getting in that quickly and it will likely involve having to deal with being lumbered with some pretty crappy low-level spellcasting just to get some Will save!

Hmm...come to think of it, taking some sacrificial levels of cleric might just do the trick...something like Cleric 2/Hexblade 3 would get me my Will and Fort saves high enough as well as netting Mettle and Arcane Resistance. Losing out on 2 levels of Cleric Spellcasting isn't so bad and I still (strangely enough) get to keep my Domain granted abilities (whatever I choose them to be).

After Ur Priest (all 10 levels), I've still got 5 levels to play with (ideally a PrC)...I thought Blackguard might be thematically appropriate (going with the whole Evil thing), gives Full BAB and Dark Blessing adds my Charisma mod to my already impressive Saves. I'm not sure though...any suggestions?

[Grynning]

For the PrC on the Ur-Priest side, you may see if you can still qualify for Divine Oracle, get yourself Evasion on top of Mettle (since Spellthieves don't get that like a Rogue).

I know Fax made a big Spellthief guide a while back, let me activate my search-fu and I'll add the link.

Edit: Aha! There it is

[Glimbur]

There's a feat from the Eberron Campaign Setting called Educated. Makes all knowledge skills class skills. Combine that with Monk or anything to get you good Fort and Will and you're good to go at level 6.

[Grynning]

Come to think of it, 2 levels of Monk is a better way to get Evasion, since Ur-priest nixes your casting for Divine Oracle levels...
So, Monk 2/Hexblade 3/UrPr 10 with that feat...then...um...Blackguard 2, then 3 levels of whatever, I guess something with Full BAB would be best since this build is kinda gishy.

Edit: Wait, forget Blackguard, I forgot that it's entry required 3 feats you probably won't have. Just take some levels of Paladin of Tyranny instead.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

As far as classes go, I would personally recommend using Binder (Tome of Magic) to meet the base save entry requirements. They're a little light on skills, but, hey, you've got Spellthief for that.

They can be a little complicated, to start, but it shouldn't be long before you figure out what you want it to do for you. There's a theurge class for both (binding and arcane) and (binding and divine) magic, but I vaguely recall the default divine option having some special requirement that might not mesh with Ur-Priest.

[Godskook]

There's a feat from the Eberron Campaign Setting called Educated. Makes all knowledge skills class skills. Combine that with Monk or anything to get you good Fort and Will and you're good to go at level 6.

Personally, I prefer Able Learner to Educated.

[crazedloon]

As far as classes go, I would personally recommend using Binder (Tome of Magic) to meet the base save entry requirements. They're a little light on skills, but, hey, you've got Spellthief for that.

QFT

Binder would be a great addition (particularly if you finish of the build i.e. 15-20) with anima magus (the arcane/binder combo) to be the ultimate thief stealing spells from mages/gods/vestiges

[Grumman]

If you wanted to get really silly, the Spellwarped template gives you another chance to no-sell incoming spells, and buffs you if it works.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Spellthief is overrated. Spellthief1/Sorcerer x with the feat Master Spellthief is the much better way to go, as you have the Spelltheif's entire purpose for existence wedded with the Sorcerer's casting.

Also, Ur Priest is overrated in a Gestalt build, unless dual-progression PrC's are allowed. It's mostly used to turn a non-gestalt build into a Gestalt build. Granted, it does the whole 'stealing spells from gods' thing, which flavor-wise works well, but mechanically, it leaves you with little benefit over a straight Cleric build.

[Fax Celestis]

Spellthief//Hexblade/Ur-Priest is a great build, as is Spellthief//Hexblade/Fortune's Friend/Luckthief with a ton of [Luck] feats.

[Ice&Fire]

Spellthief//Hexblade/Ur-Priest is a great build, as is Spellthief//Hexblade/Fortune's Friend/Luckthief with a ton of [Luck] feats.

Wheres luckthief from? Unless you mean Luckstealer from RoW

[Fishy]

Spellthief is overrated. Spellthief1/Sorcerer x with the feat Master Spellthief is the much better way to go, as you have the Spelltheif's entire purpose for existence wedded with the Sorcerer's casting.

Not really, because the Master Spellthief feat advances two class features and so broadly falls under the same category as things like Mystic Theurge, which are usually banned in Gestalt. Also, you can only hold a maximum number of spell levels equal to your spellthief class level, and Master Spellthief doesn't advance this total. You can steal a 9th level spell from the other guy, but it'll immediately go poof and you get nothing. Also, Steal Spell Resistance and Absorb Spell (Immediate Action Casting) are pretty uber.

[Keld Denar]

Needs more Sublime Chord. Master Spelltheif + Arcane Caster Class + Sublime Chord + Ur Priest = CL 50ish for your divine spells. Dispel this, sucka! Have a taste of my Blasphemy!

[Fax Celestis]

Wheres luckthief from? Unless you mean Luckstealer from RoW

Luckstealer was what I meant, yes.