Gestalt? can somebody explain?

[Mystic Muse]

I know Gestalt is sort of a combo of two classes but that's about it. What are the benefits of this exactly? Also what would happen if you had a gestalt psion/Warblade? would it work well or horribly bomb?

[Kallisti]

Gestalt, as it happens, is in the SRD.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I know Gestalt is sort of a combo of two classes but that's about it. What are the benefits of this exactly? Also what would happen if you had a gestalt psion/Warblade? would it work well or horribly bomb?

It would work well. Actually, that's one of the ideal choices, with awesome Int synergy, complimenting saves, D12 hit die, and Psion casting.

[ex cathedra]

Simply, pick two classes. when you level, you gain the class abilities of both, and your HD, BAB, saves, and skills are taken from the best of each.

Warblade/Psion is excellent, actually.

For example, a Warblade/Psion would get maneuvers, powers, and other class features from both sides. It would get a d12 for HP, since it takes the best from between the two, and it would have full BAB. It would have a good fort save from warblade, and a good will save from psion, and so forth.

[Sinfire Titan]

Simply, pick two classes. when you level, you gain the class abilities of both, and your HD, BAB, saves, and skills are taken from the best of each.

Warblade/Psion is excellent, actually.

For example, a Warblade/Psion would get maneuvers, powers, and other class features from both sides. It would get a d12 for HP, since it takes the best from between the two, and it would have full BAB. It would have a good fort save from warblade, and a good will save from psion, and so forth.

You have been ninja'ed. Epically too. A few second's difference, and it would be the other way around.






One of the wierd rules regarding Gestalt is how BAB and Saves work. Some feel it is best to use the Fractional Saves and BAB, but those rules are for Multiclassing, not Gestalt (despite appearing on the same page). If you would like help clarifying this, please ask.

[AmberVael]

Also what would happen if you had a gestalt psion/Warblade? would it work well or horribly bomb?

I'll answer this half, since it went unaddressed.

Psion//Warblade has good Intelligence synergy, and the combination of the classes allows full BAB, d12 hit die, and full power/maneuver progression. You could do far worse than Psion/Warblade, but it is my contention that you could also do better. Nice as the full suite of powers allowed by the two is, the fact remains that the best of both Psion and Warblade are activated with standard actions, and a Gestalt character gets no more actions than a normal one.

A wise builder of a Psion//Warblade will focus on finding swift action boosts and stances for the Warblade that complement their abilities, while on the Psion side they will be sure to get things like Hustle, Schism, Quicken Power, and long duration buffs. In that way, they can abuse their full range of powers without hurting as much from lack of actions.
Obviously you want some standard action stuff too, that's just a given.

[Innis Cabal]

That actually got answered....like four times before already.

Though if you want a god mix, Warlock/Rogue is a good pick to simply from a damage role. Add on invis at will....

[Olo Demonsbane]

I'll answer this half, since it went unaddressed.

Psion//Warblade has good Intelligence synergy, and the combination of the classes allows full BAB, d12 hit die, and full power/maneuver progression. You could do far worse than Psion/Warblade, but it is my contention that you could also do better. Nice as the full suite of powers allowed by the two is, the fact remains that the best of both Psion and Warblade are activated with standard actions, and a Gestalt character gets no more actions than a normal one.

A wise builder of a Psion//Warblade will focus on finding swift action boosts and stances for the Warblade that complement their abilities, while on the Psion side they will be sure to get things like Hustle, Schism, Quicken Power, and long duration buffs. In that way, they can abuse their full range of powers without hurting as much from lack of actions.
Obviously you want some standard action stuff too, that's just a given.

Actually, I think this is one of the best combos for Psion.

They gain good Fortitude and Reflex (Battle Clarity with a focus in Int?) saves, d12 hit dice, and other good defensive stuff

Psions can nova extremely well (I have one right now that can dump all of his power points in one turn), while Warblades are fully operational all of the time.

There are so many things one can do with just Warblade swift actions or just Psion non-standard actions that I cant even see straight. F'rinstace, you can always Quicken Synechtochy for an extra standard action.

In addition to all of this, Warblade and Psion are classes that you wouldnt nessecarily want to PrC out of, so you arent penalized by wanting a Warblade prestige class, like you would be for Wizard/Warblade.

Overall, this is one of the best combinations that I can think of for Warblade or Psion.

[Lycanthromancer]

Psion//warblade IS excellent.

My suggestions for such a build are fourfold:

1.) Take egoist as your primary discipline (for metamorphosis and all of those other wonderful buffs). Alternately, seer, for the same reason.

2.) Get a psicrystal (the better to share powers with, my dear).

3.) Grab Linked Power (from Complete Psionic) and a swift action power, to improve your buffing output. Cheaper than Quicken and it cuts into action economy less (one swift action for two powers instead of one).

4.) Cherry-pick powers from other lists, such as schism from telepath and second chance from seer.

After that, get plenty of extra move actions via hustle when you need them, plenty of swift action buffing, and the chance to wipe the enemy off the map with your warblade maneuvers. You'll have the option of using your psicrystal for literally (okay, not really) tons of stuff, both in and out of combat. Use it as a mount after metamorphosing it into a 7-headed cryohydra and you're all set. And you'll be one of the very few characters that can use swarm of crystals effectively.

Oh, and don't forget about other psionic feats, too.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Psion//warblade IS excellent.

My suggestions for such a build are fourfold:

1.) Take egoist as your primary discipline (for metamorphosis and all of those other wonderful buffs). Alternately, seer, for the same reason.

2.) Get a psicrystal (the better to share powers with, my dear).

3.) Grab Linked Power (from Complete Psionic) and a swift action power, to improve your buffing output. Cheaper than Quicken and it cuts into action economy less (one swift action for two powers instead of one).

4.) Cherry-pick powers from other lists, such as schism from telepath and second chance from seer.

After that, get plenty of extra move actions via hustle when you need them, plenty of swift action buffing, and the chance to wipe the enemy off the map with your warblade maneuvers. You'll have the option of using your psicrystal for literally (okay, not really) tons of stuff, both in and out of combat. Use it as a mount after metamorphosing it into a 7-headed cryohydra and you're all set. And you'll be one of the very few characters that can use swarm of crystals effectively.

Oh, and don't forget about other psionic feats, too.

You forgot the Hustle Shuffle synergy with Hustle + White Raven Tactics

[AmberVael]

That actually got answered....like four times before already.

I got ninja'd, because I actually took time to write more than a few sentences.

And yes, Warblade//Psion is good, but still... I'm not convinced that it is one of the best combinations. I just don't see the same synergy in it that you can potentially get with other potential gestalt characters. It is way better than some things (like practically any example combination from the book), but I feel it is lacking in raised power potential. You become more durable and more versatile, but I'm not sure how much your direct power changes- that is, your powers remain just as effective as a pure psion's powers, and you will only surpass a pure warblade through use of buffs. You can do both, and potentially aspects of both at the same time, but you're expanding power horizontally, not vertically.

It is the same sort of principle with Wizard and Mystic Theurge. The Theurge has many spells to choose from, and potentially greater versatility, but because the Wizard gets spell levels faster, it trounces the Mystic Theurge into the dust. It is well proven that the versatility of caster classes already make them more than viable- why would a gestalt character need much more versatility than that?

The durability is good, but what it really needs is a power boost. Granted, that kind of stuff is difficult to get (after all, what classes not only work together, but actually allow a character to surpass level limits?), but that is the kind of thing one needs to make an excellent gestalt character rather than just a good one.

Granted, I'm not the best optimizer and theoretical optimizer, but the kind of gestalt builds I see advertised on the d20 forum and then put into use just don't impress me as much as some of the other more esoteric and unusual ones which don't focus on gaining two sets of class abilities so much as one set and one augmentation of those abilities.

[Lycanthromancer]

You forgot the Hustle Shuffle synergy with Hustle + White Raven Tactics

Neglecting cheese != forgetting.

Also, make sure fission is in your repertoire. For both you AND your psicrystal. Nothing says lovin' like two maneuvers a round.

...Too bad we can't fit 8 levels of factotum in there...

[Sinfire Titan]

You forgot the Hustle Shuffle synergy with Hustle + White Raven Tactics

And Psychic Renewal:

Psychic Renewal: Let me spell this out for you guys: At will, as a Swift action, I can expend up to 9pp and my Focus to recover any martial maneuver I have readied and subsequently expended. Ruby Knight Vindicators can get extra Swift actions/round at the cost of turn attempts, and the PP can be from any source you can normally manifest from (like a Cognizance Crystal, or your 20 free PP from being a Kalashtar). A Xeph is capable of spending Swift actions to take a Move action (and a Psion or PsiWar can do the same thing). The Psychic Meditation feat allows you to recover your Focus with a Move action and a DC 20 Concentration check. White Raven Tactics can be used to give someone else extra actions.

Basically, get a **** ton of Crystals, a War Mind/Ruby Knight Vindicator with White Raven Tactics, Hustle, and an ass load of Turn Undead, and you can allow your entire party to take an extra turn. Get two of those War Mind/RKVs in the same room, and they can turn loop each other. Or you can allow the party's Wizard 8 extra turns. Technically, anyone can do a limited version of this if they have the right setup.

[waterpenguin43]

Another good class mix, in my opinion, is Swashbuckler/Truenamer. Simply because it can do so much to screw with you.

[Lycanthromancer]

Hmmm...

Psion 20//factotum 8/warblade 12? Start by going psion2//factotum 2, then adding a level in warblade, then two more factotum levels, another in warblade, etc, and then hitting warblade all the way up after you hit factotum 8?

Great offense, defense, and skills, awesome action economy, spells, powers, and lots and lots of extra actions...

Ooh.

[Sinfire Titan]

Another good class mix, in my opinion, is Swashbuckler/Truenamer. Simply because it can do so much to screw with you.

...You forgot your sarcasm tags.

[AmberVael]

Hmmm...

Psion 20//factotum 8/warblade 12? Start by going psion2//factotum 2, then adding a level in warblade, then two more factotum levels, another in warblade, etc, and then hitting warblade all the way up after you hit factotum 8?

Great offense, defense, and skills, awesome action economy, spells, powers, and lots and lots of extra actions...

Ooh.

Factotum is always pretty good for Gestalt. Intelligence works well with a lot of classes, and almost all of its abilities don't even take up an action- it gives a certain amount of durability, especially with the ability to boost saves.
Plus, you become a skill master. Not sure why, but that is always appealing to me.

I personally prefer to just go straight Factotum until I run out of levels, but that is just me.

[Grumman]

One of the wierd rules regarding Gestalt is how BAB and Saves work. Some feel it is best to use the Fractional Saves and BAB, but those rules are for Multiclassing, not Gestalt (despite appearing on the same page). If you would like help clarifying this, please ask.

I'm one of those people. It's just silly that a Wizard 20 // Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 19 should get so much more in this regard than a Wizard 20 // Sorcerer 19 / Fighter 1.

[Mystic Muse]

Okay. Since everybody seems to know so much. ( I love you guys.) Can you help me with something?

I'm going to be running a campaign with my little brother (little meaning 14) and my cousin. (13) I already know they aren't going to take this seriously so no classes that take a ton of attention in order to use. What class would go well for them? They're gestalt as well. Here's the main reason I think they may need gestalt in this. They want to be dark elf bards.

soooooooooo. Anything that goes well with a bard? They both want to be ranged as I imagine that affects a lot. Available books are anything I can get at the library which would be about anything without the "mature audiences only." sticker on it. Althoguh third party books it's possible aren't there.

[Gralamin]

I'm one of those people. It's just silly that a Wizard 20 // Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 19 should get so much more in this regard than a Wizard 20 // Sorcerer 19 / Fighter 1.

This has been contended many many many times, but ultimately I believe it ends up as: When figuring out the base attack bonus of a gestalt, find the total base attack bonus of both sides, and take the greater of the two. Following this ruling those would have the same BAB. Similarly, the same applies for Saves.

However, some contend that the first of those should have 20 BAB, and the other should have 10 BAB. Neither side can give enough support by RAW to rule one way or the other for sure (Since the gestalt rules are so vague). So I default to the one that follows RAMS.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay. Since everybody seems to know so much. ( I love you guys.) Can you help me with something?

I'm going to be running a campaign with my little brother (little meaning 14) and my cousin. (13) I already know they aren't going to take this seriously so no classes that take a ton of attention in order to use. What class would go well for them? They're gestalt as well. Here's the main reason I think they may need gestalt in this. They want to be dark elf bards.

soooooooooo. Anything that goes well with a bard?

Warlock. At-will spell-like abilities that go 'boom'. No keeping track of how many x level spells/powers/maneuvers you have readied, no fuss, no muss. You've got these Invocations and your EB does this much. Go to town.

Barbarian. The 'Bardarian' is surprisingly powerful, with his ability to maintain Bard Song bonuses while raging and charging into the fray. Plus, you get to use a two-handed axe. What's not to like about that?

Rogue. While a little weak tea to pair with another Skillmonkey class, you get all the backstabbing sneakery the class implies, Trapfinding, Evasion, and a certain disrespect for authority which any teen loves.

Fighter. If you don't want Barbarian, it's actually not... a bad choice. Extra feats = fun. At least a two-level dip in this won't go amiss.

Sorcerer. If you want all the blasty-casty, but somewhat more powerful than the Warlock, then you have these guys. A little more bookkeeping, but dramatically less so than Wizard or Cleric

[Lycanthromancer]

Psion goes pretty well with bard, especially telepath. Just like sorcerer casting, but easier (especially if they're familiar with Final Fantasy and it's Magic Point system).

[Grumman]

This has been contended many many many times, but ultimately I believe it ends up as: When figuring out the base attack bonus of a gestalt, find the total base attack bonus of both sides, and take the greater of the two. Following this ruling those would have the same BAB. Similarly, the same applies for Saves.

This reading has no support from the rules. The rules simply state that you take the best aspects of each level as you gain it, with no mention of the recordkeeping necessary to keep a running tally of each side.

[Eloel]

This reading has no support from the rules. The rules simply state that you take the best aspects of each level as you gain it, with no mention of the recordkeeping necessary to keep a running tally of each side.

Yes, you take the best of each side.
Wizard gets 0.5 BAB / level.
Sorcerer gets 0.5 BAB / level. [ int(Level*0.5) ]

You get 0.5 BAB for every Wizard//Sorcerer level.

...

The argument can be defended indefinitely for both sides.

[Xenogears]

Psions can nova extremely well (I have one right now that can dump all of his power points in one turn)

How exactly? You can only spend a number of power points equal to your manifester level on a single power. Even assuming you have inflated your manifester level that would still require you to manifest a ton of psionic powers. For instance a level 20 Psion has probably over 400 power points and would need to manifest 20 different powers in one turn to spend them all. Even assuming that they had somehow doubled their ML they would still need to manifest 10 different powers in one turn to do that. So how exactly did you manage to do it? That seems.... unfeasible.

[Lycanthromancer]

How exactly? You can only spend a number of power points equal to your manifester level on a single power. Even assuming you have inflated your manifester level that would still require you to manifest a ton of psionic powers. For instance a level 20 Psion has probably over 400 power points and would need to manifest 20 different powers in one turn to spend them all. Even assuming that they had somehow doubled their ML they would still need to manifest 10 different powers in one turn to do that. So how exactly did you manage to do it? That seems.... unfeasible.

Extended temporal acceleration/fission/schism'd/Quickened/standard action/move action manifestations?

[Xenogears]

Extended temporal acceleration/fission/schism'd/Quickened/standard action/move action manifestations?

Can that really allow you to get 10-20 powers manifested in one turn?

[Lycanthromancer]

Can that really allow you to get 10-20 powers manifested in one turn?

Well, schism would only kick in after the temporal acceleration ended, but you could also add in Linked Power, synchronicity, and Overchannel/anarchic initiate for some additional actions and more power points spent in the meantime.

But...all those together? It's doable.