things that Work so Well yet make no sense

[oxinabox]

What builds (build parts) work so well yet make almost no sense?

for example
4e rogue.
One of the Best Feats is Mounted Combat. (gain access to abilities of your mount)
You then Put your Rogue on a Giant Ant
You can now Shift 2 as a move action. (req lvl 4+)
So assuming team member, shifts 1, you can always flank in on round. (assuming no barriers)
And since your speed is now 9.
when you win inititive, you should always make it to the victem to get you flat footed sneak attack.
Thus you should always get you sneak attack on.

Also the ant can use your Stealth, acrobatics, athletic and endurance checks?
That's right! you good at being sneaky? well you can do it just as well when mounted on a giant ant!

the ant can also use it's bite attack(as your standard action) to make the target fall prone, (+9vs AC).
unfortunately the victem will prably standup on his turn. so no sneak attack there...

total cost: 1200gp + 1 feat

What wierd, yet powerful things have you found in varios RPing systems?

[Myshlaevsky]

I've not been following 4e for a while now but that doesn't really "not make sense" to me. It sounds completely awesome.

Is the ant not relatively easy to take down as the game goes on, anyway?

[Sir_Elderberry]

I've not been following 4e for a while now but that doesn't really "not make sense" to me. It sounds completely awesome.

Is the ant not relatively easy to take down as the game goes on, anyway?

I think the bit he's calling "not make sense on" is that the Stealth check doesn't take a penalty. Which is, I suppose, true, but I'd wager most DMs are going to give your enemies a circumstance bonus to Perception. (For seeing, at least. In a world where giant ants make biological sense, I'm willing to accept that they might actually be very quiet.)

[Foryn Gilnith]

Drowning to heal yourself back to -1 HP?
No penalty on actions while dead?
D&D 3.5

But these don't really work well.

[Temet Nosce]

Tripping in 3.5, ala Jack B. Quick.

[oxinabox]

I've not been following 4e for a while now but that doesn't really "not make sense" to me. It sounds completely awesome.

Is the ant not relatively easy to take down as the game goes on, anyway?

Giant ant: (1200 gp)
HP 54;
AC 18; Fortitude 17, Reflex 17, Will 14
Speed 9:

Riding Horse (75 gp)
HP 36;
AC 14; Fortitude 15, Refl ex 13, Will 10
Speed 10 (by MM0) or 8 (by Adventures vault)

Warhorse (200gp)
HP 58; Bloodied 29
AC 17; Fortitude 16, Reflex 14, Will 14
Speed 8

Giant ant is beats Warhorse for toughness, just.
I think it's fine. if your worried about your best class feature (sneak attack giving wonder) dying, bring 2.

Entertaininly it apears that at paragon lvls the intended basic mount might just be the riding lizard.

you can + 1 ac from light barding for 75gp (no penatly to anything)
or +2 for -2 chk (wich doesn't matter since we're using PC's check) and -1 speed

there is the requirement of lvl 4 for the shifting (i forgot to mention)

I've always maintained 4e rogues were so very breakble.
My first attempted had me on max 45 damage at lvl 1.
I've being fiddling with it on and off.
and it now includes things like the giant ant.
and also: "your surican's do d4? mine do d8's"

[BritishBill]

In modern only certain classes can be trained in spot and listen, it makes no sense...and it doesnt work that well... aww

[Riffington]

Hit Points.

[Myshlaevsky]

So yes, it is quite easy to take down later on then?

I don't understand why this works "too well". It allows the Rogue to move faster and get CA more often, but Rogues are usually capable of both those things anyway.

I can sort of understand your point about there being no mechanical stealth penalty by default, but if there was people probably would never take it.

[oxinabox]

I don't understand why this works "too well"..

It's not too good
it just makes no sense that one of the best things you can do to your sneaky backstabber is mount him on a giant insect.

Currently it's much much better to put your rogue on a Ant than it is to do anything else with any mount.
(that i can find, Maybe Lance has been released with PHB3?)

I'm totally going to use it next time i play:
So you see i was a Giant ant Farmer, and then i stole this ant from the farm and set out on an adventure.
I use my ant to get behind people so i can stab them.

[Kurald Galain]

I've always maintained 4e rogues were so very breakble.

Really?

We can do so much worse with the ranger. There's a mount that gets a free attack whenever you attack; combine this with Twin Strike and go to town...

[Myshlaevsky]

It's not too good
it just makes no sense that one of the best things you can do to your sneaky backstabber is mount him on a giant insect.

Currently it's much much better to put your rogue on a Ant than it is to do anything else with any mount.
(that i can find, Maybe Lance has been released with PHB3?)

I'm totally going to use it next time i play:
So you see i was a Giant ant Farmer, and then i stole this ant from the farm and set out on an adventure.
I use my ant to get behind people so i can stab them.

Eh, it's not that jarring to me. As Sir Elderberry says, in a world with Giant Ants I am pretty okay with them being particularly silent or agile as mounts.

[oxinabox]

Really?

We can do so much worse with the ranger. There's a mount that gets a free attack whenever you attack; combine this with Twin Strike and go to town...

oh! don't get me started with the Ranger!
I ban ranger straight out.
I've seen one played by someone how's never player before, it's just so much better than most things.

[Kurald Galain]

Eh, it's not that jarring to me. As Sir Elderberry says, in a world with Giant Ants I am pretty okay with them being particularly silent or agile as mounts.

That's a point.

Regarding things that work well yet make no sense, let me present the level-1 rogue power, Blinding Barrage.

Yes, I can throw daggers with such precision that they cut nine enemies right above the eye, so that they get blood in their eyes! Yes, I can do that even against enemies that have no blood, or have no eyes. No, I can't do it more than once per day, not even against one enemy. Yes, I can do it with only a single dagger, or even with a sling stone. No, I can't hit them in the eyes instead, because that would be overpowered. Yes, this is much easier than just throwing sand at their face, and no, I can't teach this to an equal-leveled fighter because rogues are so much better with weapons than fighters are...

[Jalor]

The 4e Rogue power Bloody Path. You run past the demons, and... they hit themselves?

[Kurald Galain]

The 4e Rogue power Bloody Path. You run past the demons, and... they hit themselves?

The fighter power Come And Get It. I use my magical powers to charm everyone into moving forward, so that I can hit them... except that I don't have any magical powers since I'm a fighter! Yes, even cowardly, artillery, or mindless enemies will come forward, but invisibile enemies will not, since to taunt people I have to be able to see them...

[oxinabox]

The fighter power Come And Get It. I use my magical powers to charm everyone into moving forward, so that I can hit them... except that I don't have any magical powers since I'm a fighter! Yes, even cowardly, artillery, or mindless enemies will come forward, but invisibile enemies will not, since to taunt people I have to be able to see them...

Yet it works Sooo Well, something that Cleave fighters Love!

[lesser_minion]

That's a point.

Regarding things that work well yet make no sense, let me present the level-1 rogue power, Blinding Barrage.

Yes, I can throw daggers with such precision that they cut nine enemies right above the eye, so that they get blood in their eyes! Yes, I can do that even against enemies that have no blood, or have no eyes. No, I can't do it more than once per day, not even against one enemy. Yes, I can do it with only a single dagger, or even with a sling stone. No, I can't hit them in the eyes instead, because that would be overpowered. Yes, this is much easier than just throwing sand at their face, and no, I can't teach this to an equal-leveled fighter because rogues are so much better with weapons than fighters are...

You can also use it with a crossbow. I know the things reload faster now, but it is still mildly ridiculous.

[Paulus]

*reads the thread*

huh...

Apparently 4E works so well yet makes no sense...

[Zeta Kai]

Apparently 4E works so well yet makes no sense...

That's what I've been trying to tell people, but they still cling to their broken, goofy system. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to DM some 3.5E...

[Tiki Snakes]

Giant ant: (1200 gp)
HP 54;
AC 18; Fortitude 17, Reflex 17, Will 14
Speed 9:

Riding Horse (75 gp)
HP 36;
AC 14; Fortitude 15, Refl ex 13, Will 10
Speed 10 (by MM0) or 8 (by Adventures vault)

Warhorse (200gp)
HP 58; Bloodied 29
AC 17; Fortitude 16, Reflex 14, Will 14
Speed 8

Giant ant is beats Warhorse for toughness, just.
I think it's fine. if your worried about your best class feature (sneak attack giving wonder) dying, bring 2.

Um.

Dire Wolf?
lvl 5 skirmisher.
HP 67,
Ac; 19, Fort 18, ref 17, will 16.
Speed 6.

But now look at it's mount ability...

Spoiler

Show

Combat Advantage

The dire wolf gains combat advantage against a target that has one or more of the dire wolf’s allies adjacent to it. If the dire wolf has combat advantage against the target, the target is also knocked prone on a hit.

Pack Hunter (while mounted by a friendly rider of 5th level or higher, at-will) Mount

The dire wolf’s rider gains combat advantage against an enemy if it has at least one ally other than its mount adjacent to the target.

With the giant ant actually showing at 1,800gp, and the dire wolf actually 800gp LESS than that, well.

No wonder all those goblin sneakies are riding Wolves. :)

[The Rose Dragon]

No penalty on actions while dead?

You're automatically unconscious while dead, since your nonlethal damage (a non-negative number) will exceed your current hit points (a negative number). Being immune to nonlethal damage does not change that, since 0 is still larger than a negative number.

[hiryuu]

In modern only certain classes can be trained in spot and listen, it makes no sense...and it doesnt work that well... aww

Until you start taking into account occupations, advanced classes, and so on, (in addition to the fact that the classes get Hide and Move Silently are just about as abundant) then start to think to yourself how many normal people in the modern world are completely oblivious to their surroundings.

Seriously, how many people have to take 20 on Search to find their own car keys? Now imagine them looking for something they don't even know is there.

What I think what doesn't make sense but works so well is taking a hit by a Barret light fifty and still standing, or the ability to batter down a bank vault door with your fists or answer the hardest physics questions in the world by level 3.

[ZeroNumerous]

You're automatically unconscious while dead, since your nonlethal damage (a non-negative number) will exceed your current hit points (a negative number). Being immune to nonlethal damage does not change that, since 0 is still larger than a negative number.

So if you're immune to unconsciousness and aren't instantly destroyed at 0 HP(..Eh.. Warforged?) you can continue acting.

[Foryn Gilnith]

What about Diehard? Epic Autohypnosis? Beastland Ferocity? Some of these specify that you're not unconscious, but not all. Since at -1 HP, your nonlethal damage is supposedly greater than your HP and you're unconscious anyway, being able to act means nothing.

Naturally, all these abilities only apply when you're dieing. But honestly, contriving a ruling just to deal with an issue that would only come up due to inhuman stupid seems a waste of effort.

So if you're immune to unconsciousness

Immune to unconsciousness? Is that an ability?

[The Rose Dragon]

I don't have Monster Manual III at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that "immunity to unconsciousness" is not a Warforged trait. They are immune to a lot of effects that cause being Unconscious as a result, but not unconsciousness itself.

[Sinfire Titan]

3.5 Wizard. Hell, Magic in general doesn't make sense (at least from a scientific standpoint).


The PHB has Alchemist's Fire and Acid, but not Frost or Shock (both of which were printed in the Arms and Equipment Guide).

[hamishspence]

I don't know if even "constructs" are immune to unconsciousness- but virtually every effect that causes it, they are immune to.

Living constructs do not have most of those immunities. In Races of Eberron it mentioned that some warforged deliberately inflict small amounts of nonlethal damage on themselves, so that when they are reduced to slightly above 0 hp, they fall unconscious- and wake up a short time later.

Their commanders apparently disapproved of this trick though.

[BritishBill]

Until you start taking into account occupations, advanced classes, and so on, (in addition to the fact that the classes get Hide and Move Silently are just about as abundant) then start to think to yourself how many normal people in the modern world are completely oblivious to their surroundings.

Seriously, how many people have to take 20 on Search to find their own car keys? Now imagine them looking for something they don't even know is there.

What I think what doesn't make sense but works so well is taking a hit by a Barret light fifty and still standing, or the ability to batter down a bank vault door with your fists or answer the hardest physics questions in the world by level 3.

The only people oblivious to their surroundings are people in mental asylums. Im saying just because your a certain class you should not be able to spot and listen for anything thats absurd. Just because my character may be a tough doesnt mean he cant have hobbies such as hunting to raise his perception of the world around him.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Im saying just because your a certain class you should not be able to spot and listen for anything thats absurd. Just because my character may be a tough doesnt mean he cant have hobbies such as hunting to raise his perception of the world around him.

You spot and listen by using basic wisdom modifiers. You represent those hobbies by multiclassing (which is quite easy and encouraged, because being a monolithic tough guy tends to restrict you IRL) or by using professions.