Can you Counter a Counterspell?

[Korivan]

Yup, played too much magic and DnD this weekend and that always means the lines gets blurry. So anyways, lets say you really need to get a spell off. Either to rescue someone, kill someone, accomplish whatnot and all. And some snotty caster either uses Dispel or the counterspell to what your using. could you say, if you had another of that spell, or a Dispel to counter that persons counter?

Example:
PC Wizard: Casts fireball at a cults superweapon in attempt to save the world.
Cult Wizard: Succeeds on a Spellcraft check, casts Dispel Magic, makes roll.
PC Wizard: Succeeds on a Spellcraft check, casts Dispel Magic, makes roll.

Now, if memory serves, you HAVE to ready action to counterspell. And I think that it counts towards the number of spells you can counter a turn. But...what if you have extra actions a round? I don't think by rules this works but could it? Would you allow it.

[sambo.]

i wouldn't allow it in general, except possibly if the first spellcaster has a quickened dispell at his disposal.

but i would allow a third spellcaster to counter the second one's counterspell.

[Nohwl]

no. you cannot counter spells with a duration of instantaneous.

[The Rose Dragon]

no. you cannot counter spells with a duration of instantaneous.

You can, while they are being cast. So you can counter, say, fireball, with another fireball.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I have a Ring of Greater Counterspells. If this ring doesn't give me dominion over counterspelling by letting me counterspell a counterspell, it's hardly "greater" in its counterspelling, now is it...

IMO, yes.

[Nohwl]

You can, while they are being cast. So you can counter, say, fireball, with another fireball.

not dispel magic.

Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Level: Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 4, Magic 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

...

The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

[arguskos]

Key bit there is "the EFFECT". You CAN stop the Fireball spell from being completed.

[The Rose Dragon]

not dispel magic.

Dispelling a spell and counterspelling are different things. Note that Dispel Magic can be used in three ways: area dispel, targeted dispel and counterspell.

[Milskidasith]

not dispel magic.

There is a difference between dispelling and counterspelling. Read the rules on counterspelling before arguing this, please.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Ya. "Counter" and "dispel" are not the same word. Heck, it's even in a separate use of the spell.

Counterspell

When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.

That's the full text. No reference to duration: instantaneous in there.

[Nohwl]

There is a difference between dispelling and counterspelling. Read the rules on counterspelling before arguing this, please.

i've always heard them used interchangeably. i suppose you are right.

[holywhippet]

I would assume you could "counter" using a readied attack action. eg. Wizard A tries to cast fireball. Wizard B counterspells with fireball or dispel magic. Fighter A has a readied action and attacks Wizard B because he is casting a spell. If Fighter A hits and Wizard B fails his concentration check then his counterspell has been effectively stopped.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

Or you could always cast Last Word. That usually helps.
Personally I abuse Braids so no one but me has mana.
Wait........

[Korivan]

Or you could always cast Last Word. That usually helps.
Personally I abuse Braids so no one but me has mana.
Wait........

Oooooo, forgot about Last Word. Nice too, I'm more of a Force of Will and Undermine guy. Though I tried to make a DnD varient of Undermine too. Got denied. But that was for a good thing.

Looking at this, while I still like the idea, and want to impliment it, I'm thinking its a bit too complicated for most of my players.

[Eldariel]

Or you could always cast Last Word. That usually helps.
Personally I abuse Braids so no one but me has mana.
Wait........

In response to your Last Word, I cast Time Stop. All spells on the stack are removed from the game. Your uncounterability won't avail you. Same goes with Mindbreak Trap, btw. Of course, with the difference that Mindbreak Trap is infinitely more playable in real formats.

Anyways, I'd allow a third party to "counter the counterspell" by spellcrafting the Dispel Magic (as it's a use of Dispel Magic, it's still sorta "cast") and countering IT. I really don't see anything wrong with that; I just can't see the person casting the original spell countering back since that would involve casting two spells at the same time, which seems impossible. Though at the point where that would be relevant, I suppose seeming impossible is a small problem what with temporal manipulation and all.


I suppose, if Epic Counterspell is game, you shouldn't allow this though since it would just lead to two guys burning all their spell slots every time they face into countering each other's counters over the initial spell.

[Korivan]

I suppose, if Epic Counterspell is game, you shouldn't allow this though since it would just lead to two guys burning all their spell slots every time they face into countering each other's counters over the initial spell.

Thats pretty much what happens when two blue decks with a few counter spells go at it.

[Eldariel]

Thats pretty much what happens when two blue decks with a few counter spells go at it.

Eh, it usually comes down to mana rather than availability...outside Legacy anyways where every played counterspell costs 1 or 0 mana. But yeah, mana is much like actions in D&D. It just so happens Epic Counterspell pulls the plug on that one.

So yeah, it'd be like two blue decks with infinite mana and half their library in hands going at it (let's say, High Tide combo going off against blue control playing Prosperity for whatever reason; maybe card availability).

[Milskidasith]

Epic Counterspell would still required readied actions, would it not? It's just an out of the box epic spell, right?

[EleventhHour]

Thats pretty much what happens when two blue decks with a few counter spells go at it.

Spoiler

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"I counter your counterspell with a counterspell, to counter the counter that countered my countering that was countering the counter of the counter, that was countering my counter-counterspell, because you countered my counterspell that was counterspelling my Wind Drake."

Pretty much that.

I love Blue.

[Korivan]

Spoiler

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"I counter your counterspell with a counterspell, to counter the counter that countered my countering that was countering the counter of the counter, that was countering my counter-counterspell, because you countered my counterspell that was counterspelling my Wind Drake."

Pretty much that.

I love Blue.

Wow, that takes me back the the table...I prefer Blue/black nill decks...or life-gain with trampling/lifelink Serra Avatar "I hit you for 12,000 damage, and gain 12,003 life...HAHAHAHAHA"

But back to topic, I'm gathering that once again I should stop trying to combine game mechanics from totally different games. Though Eldariel's multiple casters countering should be legal even by DnD RAW.

[Eldariel]

Epic Counterspell would still required readied actions, would it not? It's just an out of the box epic spell, right?

Epic Counterspell is a feat, from Forgotten Realms no less. It is one of the reasons both Epic and Forgotten Realms have earned their "FUBAR" nicknames. It's really just 'cause...ah hell, read it for yourselves:

Spoiler

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Epic Counterspell [Epic]
You can counterspell any number of spells each round.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 30 ranks, Combat Reflexes, Improved Counterspell, Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell, Reactive Counterspell.
Benefit: Any number of times per round, you can counterspell an opponent's spell even if you have not readied an action to do so. Such a counterspell does not count against your later actions for the round. You can even use this feat when flat-footed.
Normal: Without this feat, a character must ready an action in each round that she wishes to use a counterspell. A character with the Reactive Counterspell feat can counterspell an opponent's spell if she hasn't readied an action, but only once per turn and not when flat-footed.
Special: This feat should be considered a part of the epic bonus feat list for any class that grants access to spells of at least 6th level as a part of normal (nonepic) class progression (such as bards, clerics, druids, sorcerers and wizards), as well as any prestige class that grants a "+1 level of existing class" spell progression at all levels.

[Tyndmyr]

I would say you can, provided you meet the usual requirements to counter the target spell.

Of course, it might sometimes be easier to just let the original spell go through, and cast another at the original target, eh?

[Flickerdart]

You can counter the counter with a better counter, which is to say a projectile to the face. Roll a DC lots concentration check, kthx.

[Darrin]

Now, if memory serves, you HAVE to ready action to counterspell.

If you have Divine Defiance (FCII), you can spend a turning attempt to counterspell as an immediate action without readying an action beforehand.

Otherwise, if you need an action to ready... Celerity shenanigans would probably come in very handy.

[Eldariel]

You can counter the counter with a better counter, which is to say a projectile to the face. Roll a DC lots concentration check, kthx.

Which just gets countered and Masteryed back to your face to counter your spell For Real Real™.

[PhoenixRivers]

not dispel magic.

We're not talking about "Dispelling", which is getting rid of in place spells, and has no timing rules.

We're talking about Counterspelling, which is different.

Provided you can find a way to get an immediate action, with the timing of an immediate action, on your turn, or cast a fireball without an immediate action, when it isn't, you could do this.

A cerebremancer wouldn't have too hard a time of it.

Schism
You do synchronicity.
Your Schism does synchronicity.

You have 2 readied actions, which need not be announced.
1st: Cast fireball on X.
Response: Counterspell with dispel magic.
2nd: Use belt of battle for a standard action
Ready to counter
Counter dispel magic with dispel magic.

[Willis888]

If they have Dispel Magic (or other appropriate counter) quickened, I would allow two concentration checks. The first one would check to see if they lose track of the first spell being cast from the distraction of thinking about a counterspell, and the second is to see if they succeed in casting the quickened counter while distracted by trying to also cast the first spell. DC 11 + spell level + counterspell level (+4 for being quickened) for both.

If the spell and counterspell do not share components (ie V, S, M), the player might get a bonus, but there is a conflict then maybe a penalty depending on severity.

You might want to work out ahead of time exactly how your PC's activate their quickened spells (a gesture? a word? crushing the material component?).

[Dragon Elite]

I suppose seeming impossible is a small problem what with temporal manipulation and all.

Can I sig this?

[PhoenixRivers]

In addition, there are prevention methods. Ring of enduring arcana, Caster Level boosting, etc.

[LibraryOgre]

RAW, probably not. I would allow it if you had an appropriate swift-action spell or, depending on the verbiage, an item of counterspelling.